The Lies of "Withdrawal"........

[Giora Drachsler]

Put this one too on the incitements list.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

Please note the typical Palestinian nonsense about "a Moslem shrine in
Bet-Lehem being turned into a synagogue". They mean the Tomb of the
Jewish matriarch Rachel whose death and burial in Bet-lehem is recorded
in the Book of Genesis. This has been a Jewish holy place for 3500
years, long before Islam was invented.
The Biblical book of Ruth is also set in Bet-lehem which was then a
Jewish town. Ruth was an ancestor of King David who was born in Bet-
Lehem and who ruled there and in Hebron before establishing the Jewish
monarchy in Jerusalem.That was 1600 years or more before the Qoran.
There is no doubt about Jewish ties to Bet-Lehem.
Today Moslems, who forcibly conquered Bet-Lehem in the 7th century
("fatahuha 'anwatan" say Arab historians...) are the majority in
Bet-Lehem and the Christians who live near the traditional birthplace
of Jesus are a minority under Palestinian oppression.
The only Jews in the town look after the Tomb of Rachel and sadly they
continue to need Israel army protection in the face of Arab
provocation and intolerance.
David
Jerusalem
Istrael

Well said !

Nossy,
You know as well as I do, along with EVERYBODY in the world, that if
the so-called Palestinian Arabs, and the other Arab nations, had
accepted the fact that the Jews have historical ancestral ties to
Palestine, that the Zionists PURCHASED the land, and that the 1947 UN
Partition Plan was a reasonable compromise to resolve competing
claims, none of what you're complaining about would even be happening
now.
Furthermore, if the Palestinian Arabs had abided by the 1993 Oslo
Accords and had not used the Israeli evacuation to develop and import
illegal weapons that were intended solely for OFFENSIVE MILITARY
ACTION against Israel, none of this "roadmap" would've been necessary
either; they would've have their independent nation by now, and the
freedom to determine their own destiny.
Also, if Arafart would've accepted the FACT that Israel is a sovereign
nation with the right to control immigration within its borders,
again, you'd be in your own independent nation right now instead of
suffering under a military occupation resulting from Arab aggression
against Israel.
Sorry Nossy, but the Zionists are not going to abandon the nation that
they purchased and they built! If you want to build your own nation,
please do so, and please improve the living conditions of the
Palestinian Arabs. But if the only thing the Palestinian Arabs are
going to do with areas under their control is to launch attacks
against Israelis and Israel, what do you think is going to happen to
them (and it's not going to be good news)?
Finally, the Palestinian Arabs don't have a monopoly on refugess
resulting from the creation of Israel. From what I just read, more
than 800,000 Jews (compared to about 500,000 Arabs) also became
refugees despite roots going back centuries in various Middle East and
North African countries. So where are the refugee camps where the
Jews are being confined? At least one side of the conflict took care
of its people instead of using them as pawns (and don't the
Palestinian Arabs realize who is really to blame for them still
thinking of themselves as "refugees?).
Sean F.

The media goes along with the lies in Gaza and Bethlehem........They
move their checkpoints and weapons of mass destruction a few yards
here or there and the major media calls it a "withdrawal."
From palestine-info.co.uk
Daily News
Palestinians criticize PA-Zionist agreement on Bethlehem
By
Jul 1, 2003, 18:12
Bethlehem - Palestinians in the West Bank city of Bethlehem have
criticized the new agreement between the Palestinian Authority and the
Zionist entity over troop withdrawal from their city.
They said that the new agreement was worse than a previous one reached
between the two parties. The citizens noted that the Zionist
occupation forces would remain in half of the city namely in northern
Bethlehem where the occupation authorities had turned an Islamic
shrine into a Jewish synagogue and army barracks.
Occupation troops would also remain in areas of Beit Jala, Beit Sahur
and Al-Khader towns, the Palestinian sources said, noting that
withdrawal of the occupation forces would mainly be from
heavily-populated areas in those towns.
In return, the Zionist troops would not evacuate any village and would
retain roadblocks and military checkpoints erected during the Aqsa
intifada.

[AnonMoos]

City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920 In the early years
of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for the Holy Land and
the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few rabbis were
caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism shows its true
face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis stand at war against
it just as rabbis of former generations had opposed the false
messiahs of their times, including during the time of the false
messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be obliterated, and the later
movement of the Frankists. December 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary

The thing is that in 1920's Hungary, those were legitimate opinions
(though a little extreme -- I wonder if those Rabbis were Satmarers).

But nowadays Neturei Qarta is nothing more than a crackpot weirdo
crankish kook cult -- and Neturei Karta pronouncements have no more
validity than anything spewed forth by the Raelians, Solar Temple,
Aum Shinrikyo, or Heaven's Gate.

P.S. I wonder who has turned out to be most Shabtai Zevi-like --
those who encouraged Hungarian Jews to stay in Hungary in the 1920's,
or those who advised them to move to future Israel??

[Binyamin Dissen]

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:47:22 -0500 AnonMoos <***@io.com> wrote:

:>David Goldman <***@erols.com> wrote:

:>> City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920 In the early years
:>> of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for the Holy Land and
:>> the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few rabbis were
:>> caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism shows its true
:>> face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis stand at war against
:>> it just as rabbis of former generations had opposed the false
:>> messiahs of their times, including during the time of the false
:>> messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be obliterated, and the later
:>> movement of the Frankists. December 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary

:>The thing is that in 1920's Hungary, those were legitimate opinions
:>(though a little extreme -- I wonder if those Rabbis were Satmarers).

I wonder how many innocent Jews, who followed those opinions to stay in what
was thought to be the safety of Hungary, lost their lives and their children's
lives in the Holocaust?

:>But nowadays Neturei Qarta is nothing more than a crackpot weirdo
:>crankish kook cult -- and Neturei Karta pronouncements have no more
:>validity than anything spewed forth by the Raelians, Solar Temple,
:>Aum Shinrikyo, or Heaven's Gate.

:>P.S. I wonder who has turned out to be most Shabtai Zevi-like --
:>those who encouraged Hungarian Jews to stay in Hungary in the 1920's,
:>or those who advised them to move to future Israel??

Did any of those people who signed the document live thru the war, and if so,
what did they say after the death of six million Jews were known?

--
Binyamin Dissen <***@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

[David Goldman]

"With regard to the prohibition of the Zionist elections, after much
analysis, consideration and effort, I have ruled that according to
Jewish law the Zionist Knesset involves heresy and sectarianism,
idolatry, promiscuity and murder. Anyone who participates with the
Knesset is a collaborator in everything they do, and it is also
prohibited for anyone to send someone else as his representative,
because a person's representative is like the person himself. Although
many people did not want me to speak about this, I am obligated to do
so because it has been very costly to me as is known. In addition, it
cost me a great deal of money for my Yeshiva elementary schools that I
established both in the Holy Land and in the Diaspora, etc.

However, I am willing to give up everything, and am prepared to
sacrifice myself for the truth, "and I shall not fear the danger of
the sword G-d forbid." In our day there is no greater prohibition than
this. However, I am absolutely convinced after devoting a great deal
of time to this matter, that it is prohibited, and a person must be
ready for self-sacrifice in this regard." From Drashos, Matos-Masay p.
160.


WARNING OF OUR RABBIS, THE GUARDIANS OF THE TORAH
RABBINICAL COURT OF JERUSALEM - JULY 1961

To the Jews living in the Holy Land!

We have already made known the position of the Torah since the first
Knesset elections of the regime whose members are virtually all
heretics that it is forbidden to participate in Knesset elections

We are the representatives of the great rabbis of previous generations
who prohibited participating in the elections to the National Assembly
that existed before the creation of the State, and which declared
heresy in the name of the Torah. All the great rabbis of the Holy Land
and the Diaspora agreed to that prohibition, and all the moreso for
elections of the State itself, which are not only of no value, but
carry also the severe transgression of the desecration of G-d's Name,
collaboration with evildoers and their destructive activities….THE
TORAH IS ETERNAL AND NO ONE CAN ANNUL IT, G-D FORBID!
Whosoever participates in the elections is supporting sinners, and
should realize he carries responsibility for the outcome of his
participation with the Knesset, that house of heresy, which is
committing grave sins against G-d and is battling against our Torah.

May G-d enable those who are in error and who are causing others to
err to truly repent, and we can state that we have saved our own souls
from responsibility in this matter.

May those who follow our words feel safe and not be afraid.

The Rabbinical Court of Jerusalem

Rabbi Pinchas Epstein
Rabbi Yisrael Y. Reisman
Rabbi David Jungreis


From Rabbi Yaakov Mutsafi
Chief Rabbi of the Sephardic Rabbinical Court of the Holy Land
June, 1981

With regard to the prohibition of participating in the elections to
the Knesset, we hereby declare our Jewish legal position that it is
absolutely forbidden for any man or woman to participate in these
elections, which involve many severe prohibitions and sins.

We must separate entirely from the sectarians and heretics, and not
become involved with those who rebel against our Torah.

We must not be seduced by the imaginary claims of saving Jews because
the very collaboration itself is a severe prohibition, and no one has
the power to annul it.

Whosoever listens to us shall be safe and will be blessed.

May we merit to see the revelation of the Divine Presence, G-d's
majesty and the coming of the Messiah.

Yaakov Mutsafi
Yehezkel S. L. Halberstam
David Even Tov
H. Shalom (formerly of Sa'ana, Yemen)


TORAH RULING
Of the great Rabbis of the Jewish People
1961

We also agree with the rabbis of the Rabbinical Court of Jerusalem to
prohibit participation in the Knesset elections that were prohibited
by our predecessors, who prohibited being involved with the Zionists
and being involved in their elections to choose representatives
because such representatives are collaborators in all the severe
prohibitions committed there.

We add our names to theirs, and wish to encourage our fellow Jews who
are loyal to the Torah not to participate in the elections in order
not to violate the severe prohibitions and what accompanies them.

May G-d's honor be raised, and may He have mercy on us and send the
Messiah.

[40 signatures]

[Binyamin Dissen]

Because Mr. David Goldman does not have any more Torah knowledge than your
typical reformed.

He is able to copy tracts that are written in English or German, but he is
incapable of independent thought.

You see his reactions when shown that the actions by his groups are profaning
the Holy Shabbos. He makes excuses that "others do it, so it is OK if his
groups do it as well".

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:18:33 -0500 AnonMoos <***@io.com> wrote:

:>David Goldman <***@erols.com> wrote:
:>>Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:>>>On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:47:22 -0500 AnonMoos <***@io.com> wrote:
:>>>>David Goldman <***@erols.com> wrote:
:>
:>>>>> City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920 In the early
:>>>>> years of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for the Holy
:>>>>> Land and the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few
:>>>>> rabbis were caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism
:>>>>> shows its true face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis
:>>>>> stand at war against it just as rabbis of former generations had
:>>>>> opposed the false messiahs of their times, including during the
:>>>>> time of the false messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be
:>>>>> obliterated, and the later movement of the Frankists. December
:>>>>> 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary
:>
:>>>> The thing is that in 1920's Hungary, those were legitimate
:>>>> opinions (though a little extreme -- I wonder if those Rabbis were
:>>>> Satmarers).
:>
:>>>> But nowadays Neturei Qarta is nothing more than a crackpot weirdo
:>>>> crankish kook cult -- and Neturei Karta pronouncements have no
:>>>> more validity than anything spewed forth by the Raelians, Solar
:>>>> Temple, Aum Shinrikyo, or Heaven's Gate.
:>
:>>>> P.S. I wonder who has turned out to be most Shabtai Zevi-like --
:>>>> those who encouraged Hungarian Jews to stay in Hungary in the
:>>>> 1920's, or those who advised them to move to future Israel??
:>
:>>> I wonder how many innocent Jews, who followed those opinions to
:>>> stay in what was thought to be the safety of Hungary, lost their
:>>> lives and their children's lives in the Holocaust?
:>
:>>> Did any of those people who signed the document live thru the war,
:>>> and if so, what did they say after the death of six million Jews
:>>> were known?
:>
:>> "With regard to the prohibition of the Zionist elections, after much
:>> analysis, consideration and effort, I have ruled that according to
:>> Jewish law the Zionist Knesset involves heresy and sectarianism,
:>> idolatry, promiscuity and murder. Anyone who participates with the
:>> Knesset is a collaborator in everything they do, and it is also
:>> prohibited for anyone to send someone else as his representative,
:>
:>Hey Davey-baby, why don't you actually answer the questions, instead of
:>merely trying to change the subject??


--
Binyamin Dissen <***@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

[David Goldman]

The words of the Great Sage, Benny Dissen.........

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:14:10 +0300, Binyamin Dissen

Post by Binyamin Dissen
Because Mr. David Goldman does not have any more Torah knowledge than your
typical reformed.
He is able to copy tracts that are written in English or German, but he is
incapable of independent thought.
You see his reactions when shown that the actions by his groups are profaning
the Holy Shabbos. He makes excuses that "others do it, so it is OK if his
groups do it as well".
:>
:>>>>> City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920 In the early
:>>>>> years of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for the Holy
:>>>>> Land and the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few
:>>>>> rabbis were caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism
:>>>>> shows its true face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis
:>>>>> stand at war against it just as rabbis of former generations had
:>>>>> opposed the false messiahs of their times, including during the
:>>>>> time of the false messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be
:>>>>> obliterated, and the later movement of the Frankists. December
:>>>>> 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary
:>
:>>>> The thing is that in 1920's Hungary, those were legitimate
:>>>> opinions (though a little extreme -- I wonder if those Rabbis were
:>>>> Satmarers).
:>
:>>>> But nowadays Neturei Qarta is nothing more than a crackpot weirdo
:>>>> crankish kook cult -- and Neturei Karta pronouncements have no
:>>>> more validity than anything spewed forth by the Raelians, Solar
:>>>> Temple, Aum Shinrikyo, or Heaven's Gate.
:>
:>>>> P.S. I wonder who has turned out to be most Shabtai Zevi-like --
:>>>> those who encouraged Hungarian Jews to stay in Hungary in the
:>>>> 1920's, or those who advised them to move to future Israel??
:>
:>>> I wonder how many innocent Jews, who followed those opinions to
:>>> stay in what was thought to be the safety of Hungary, lost their
:>>> lives and their children's lives in the Holocaust?
:>
:>>> Did any of those people who signed the document live thru the war,
:>>> and if so, what did they say after the death of six million Jews
:>>> were known?
:>
:>> "With regard to the prohibition of the Zionist elections, after much
:>> analysis, consideration and effort, I have ruled that according to
:>> Jewish law the Zionist Knesset involves heresy and sectarianism,
:>> idolatry, promiscuity and murder. Anyone who participates with the
:>> Knesset is a collaborator in everything they do, and it is also
:>> prohibited for anyone to send someone else as his representative,
:>
:>Hey Davey-baby, why don't you actually answer the questions, instead of
:>merely trying to change the subject??

[JGB]

Post by AnonMoos

City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920 In the early years
of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for the Holy Land and
the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few rabbis were
caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism shows its true
face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis stand at war against
it just as rabbis of former generations had opposed the false
messiahs of their times, including during the time of the false
messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be obliterated, and the later
movement of the Frankists. December 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary

The thing is that in 1920's Hungary, those were legitimate opinions
(though a little extreme -- I wonder if those Rabbis were Satmarers).<

Of course they were. But more important, the Hungarian "Jews" are genuinely
the descendents of the Khazars that some non-Jews paint the majority of
Jews as being. Many from the Khazars did end up in Hungary and became these
far-out, rabbicentric, almost asiatic, "Islamic-like" sects who swear by
the "fatwas" of their mullahs, I mean "rabbis." Though still influential,
they represent no more than 10% of the whole Jewish population at most.
These Khazars naturally have no innate feelings for the Jewish homeland,
and since they are totally removed from their true Khazar homeland, they
prefer the ghetto life just as gypsies and bedouins prefer the nomadic
life. That they paint themselves as the "true, faithful" Jews is really
laughable considering their true Central Asian origins.

Post by AnonMoos
But nowadays Neturei Qarta is nothing more than a crackpot weirdo
crankish kook cult -- and Neturei Karta pronouncements have no more
validity than anything spewed forth by the Raelians, Solar Temple,
Aum Shinrikyo, or Heaven's Gate.
P.S. I wonder who has turned out to be most Shabtai Zevi-like --
those who encouraged Hungarian Jews to stay in Hungary in the 1920's,
or those who advised them to move to future Israel??

[Alon Katzir]

Did you forget to take your meds again Goldman???

BTW Lets look back at the 20's and 30's in Hungary... who survived WWII? The
Jews or Zionists as you call them that left for Israel or the ones that
stayed back and were slaughtered in the Holocaust??

WARNING
We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to
announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we
Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah
Zionism has proved itself to be a false ideology that is very far from
the faith of our Torah. Zionism is extremely dangerous and destructive
to our religion.
Therefore, we request and admonish every person who still retains a
DO NOT GO IN THE WAYS OF THE ZIONISTS, KEEP AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE
THEIR ENTIRE WAY IS EVIL.
It is forbidden to associate with this sect, to support them in any
way whatsoever!
As far as we are concerned this issue is of extreme important and
affects the spiritual and physical existence of our People, and shall
be presented to the national assembly of the Orthodox Bureau, who will
analyze this matter.
Therefore, every intelligent person must realize that it is forbidden
to attend any of the assemblies held by the Zionists whatsoever!
May those who listen to us be blessed.
City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920
Rabbi David Greenwald Rabbi Yehezkel Panet Rabbi Chaim Zvi
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Avraham Y. Freund Rabbi Shaul Brach Rabbi Shlomo
Zalman Ollman
Rabbi Yaakov E. Panet Rabbi Yisrael Freund Rabbi Moshe D.
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Menachem Sofer Rabbi Avraham S. Katz Rabbi Avraham S.
Eliash
Please post in all synagogues!
RABBINICAL COURT OF THE ORTHODOX COMMUNITY OF EDAS YESHURUN, City of
Kaszica, Hungary
URGENT NOTICE
It is our obligation to make a public announcement because we know the
extent to which the issues are important. Despite all its propaganda,
the Zionist movement stands in total opposition to the foundations of
the Jewish faith transmitted to us throughout the generations. Zionism
itself rejects the Jewish religion. This is the position of our great
and pious rabbis in the past and the present, in the Holy Land and
abroad, without exception.
In the early years of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for
the Holy Land and the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few
rabbis were caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism shows
its true face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis stand at war
against it just as rabbis of former generations had opposed the false
messiahs of their times, including during the time of the false
messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be obliterated, and the later
movement of the Frankists.
Association with the Zionists is forbidden according to the Torah and
our tradition. Zionism is a disgusting abomination.
This announcement is based on all aspects of Jewish law. Every Jew who
fears G-d will certainly accept our statement under the Code of Jewish
Law and shall not stray from it to the left or the right.
May those who follow it be blessed.
December 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary
Rabbi Shaul Brach
Rabbi Hanoch H. Pack
Rabbi Shmuel Jungreis
Rabbi Shmuel Engel

[David Goldman]

My, my, Alonka. You are back. Anyway, you must be referring to all
those Betar members that Begin left behind as he skidadelled out of
Europe dressed like an Orthodox Jew..........

Post by Alon Katzir
Did you forget to take your meds again Goldman???
BTW Lets look back at the 20's and 30's in Hungary... who survived WWII? The
Jews or Zionists as you call them that left for Israel or the ones that
stayed back and were slaughtered in the Holocaust??

WARNING
We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to
announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we
Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah
Zionism has proved itself to be a false ideology that is very far from
the faith of our Torah. Zionism is extremely dangerous and destructive
to our religion.
Therefore, we request and admonish every person who still retains a
DO NOT GO IN THE WAYS OF THE ZIONISTS, KEEP AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE
THEIR ENTIRE WAY IS EVIL.
It is forbidden to associate with this sect, to support them in any
way whatsoever!
As far as we are concerned this issue is of extreme important and
affects the spiritual and physical existence of our People, and shall
be presented to the national assembly of the Orthodox Bureau, who will
analyze this matter.
Therefore, every intelligent person must realize that it is forbidden
to attend any of the assemblies held by the Zionists whatsoever!
May those who listen to us be blessed.
City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920
Rabbi David Greenwald Rabbi Yehezkel Panet Rabbi Chaim Zvi
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Avraham Y. Freund Rabbi Shaul Brach Rabbi Shlomo
Zalman Ollman
Rabbi Yaakov E. Panet Rabbi Yisrael Freund Rabbi Moshe D.
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Menachem Sofer Rabbi Avraham S. Katz Rabbi Avraham S.
Eliash
Please post in all synagogues!
RABBINICAL COURT OF THE ORTHODOX COMMUNITY OF EDAS YESHURUN, City of
Kaszica, Hungary
URGENT NOTICE
It is our obligation to make a public announcement because we know the
extent to which the issues are important. Despite all its propaganda,
the Zionist movement stands in total opposition to the foundations of
the Jewish faith transmitted to us throughout the generations. Zionism
itself rejects the Jewish religion. This is the position of our great
and pious rabbis in the past and the present, in the Holy Land and
abroad, without exception.
In the early years of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for
the Holy Land and the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few
rabbis were caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism shows
its true face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis stand at war
against it just as rabbis of former generations had opposed the false
messiahs of their times, including during the time of the false
messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be obliterated, and the later
movement of the Frankists.
Association with the Zionists is forbidden according to the Torah and
our tradition. Zionism is a disgusting abomination.
This announcement is based on all aspects of Jewish law. Every Jew who
fears G-d will certainly accept our statement under the Code of Jewish
Law and shall not stray from it to the left or the right.
May those who follow it be blessed.
December 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary
Rabbi Shaul Brach
Rabbi Hanoch H. Pack
Rabbi Shmuel Jungreis
Rabbi Shmuel Engel

[Lisa R.]

Post by Alon Katzir
Did you forget to take your meds again Goldman???
BTW Lets look back at the 20's and 30's in Hungary... who survived WWII? The
Jews or Zionists as you call them that left for Israel or the ones that
stayed back and were slaughtered in the Holocaust??

Oh, but Goldman loveth the dead Jews.

But he loves them only on those rare occasions when he acknowledges that Jews exist.

Lisa

[die sache]

Post by Alon Katzir
Did you forget to take your meds again Goldman???
BTW Lets look back at the 20's and 30's in Hungary... who survived WWII? The
Jews or Zionists as you call them that left for Israel or the ones that
stayed back and were slaughtered in the Holocaust??

What is your view of Rudolph Kastner, et al?

ds

Post by Alon Katzir

WARNING
We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to
announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we
Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah
Zionism has proved itself to be a false ideology that is very far from
the faith of our Torah. Zionism is extremely dangerous and destructive
to our religion.
Therefore, we request and admonish every person who still retains a
DO NOT GO IN THE WAYS OF THE ZIONISTS, KEEP AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE
THEIR ENTIRE WAY IS EVIL.
It is forbidden to associate with this sect, to support them in any
way whatsoever!
As far as we are concerned this issue is of extreme important and
affects the spiritual and physical existence of our People, and shall
be presented to the national assembly of the Orthodox Bureau, who will
analyze this matter.
Therefore, every intelligent person must realize that it is forbidden
to attend any of the assemblies held by the Zionists whatsoever!
May those who listen to us be blessed.
City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920
Rabbi David Greenwald Rabbi Yehezkel Panet Rabbi Chaim Zvi
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Avraham Y. Freund Rabbi Shaul Brach Rabbi Shlomo
Zalman Ollman
Rabbi Yaakov E. Panet Rabbi Yisrael Freund Rabbi Moshe D.
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Menachem Sofer Rabbi Avraham S. Katz Rabbi Avraham S.
Eliash
Please post in all synagogues!
RABBINICAL COURT OF THE ORTHODOX COMMUNITY OF EDAS YESHURUN, City of
Kaszica, Hungary
URGENT NOTICE
It is our obligation to make a public announcement because we know the
extent to which the issues are important. Despite all its propaganda,
the Zionist movement stands in total opposition to the foundations of
the Jewish faith transmitted to us throughout the generations. Zionism
itself rejects the Jewish religion. This is the position of our great
and pious rabbis in the past and the present, in the Holy Land and
abroad, without exception.
In the early years of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for
the Holy Land and the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few
rabbis were caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism shows
its true face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis stand at war
against it just as rabbis of former generations had opposed the false
messiahs of their times, including during the time of the false
messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be obliterated, and the later
movement of the Frankists.
Association with the Zionists is forbidden according to the Torah and
our tradition. Zionism is a disgusting abomination.
This announcement is based on all aspects of Jewish law. Every Jew who
fears G-d will certainly accept our statement under the Code of Jewish
Law and shall not stray from it to the left or the right.
May those who follow it be blessed.
December 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary
Rabbi Shaul Brach
Rabbi Hanoch H. Pack
Rabbi Shmuel Jungreis
Rabbi Shmuel Engel

[Adam Helberg]

WARNING
We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to
announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we
Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah
Zionism has proved itself to be a false ideology that is very far from
the faith of our Torah. Zionism is extremely dangerous and destructive
to our religion.
Therefore, we request and admonish every person who still retains a
DO NOT GO IN THE WAYS OF THE ZIONISTS, KEEP AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE
THEIR ENTIRE WAY IS EVIL.
It is forbidden to associate with this sect, to support them in any
way whatsoever!
As far as we are concerned this issue is of extreme important and
affects the spiritual and physical existence of our People, and shall
be presented to the national assembly of the Orthodox Bureau, who will
analyze this matter.
Therefore, every intelligent person must realize that it is forbidden
to attend any of the assemblies held by the Zionists whatsoever!
May those who listen to us be blessed.
City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920
Rabbi David Greenwald Rabbi Yehezkel Panet Rabbi Chaim Zvi
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Avraham Y. Freund Rabbi Shaul Brach Rabbi Shlomo
Zalman Ollman
Rabbi Yaakov E. Panet Rabbi Yisrael Freund Rabbi Moshe D.
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Menachem Sofer Rabbi Avraham S. Katz Rabbi Avraham S.
Eliash
Please post in all synagogues!
RABBINICAL COURT OF THE ORTHODOX COMMUNITY OF EDAS YESHURUN, City of
Kaszica, Hungary
URGENT NOTICE
It is our obligation to make a public announcement because we know the
extent to which the issues are important. Despite all its propaganda,
the Zionist movement stands in total opposition to the foundations of
the Jewish faith transmitted to us throughout the generations. Zionism
itself rejects the Jewish religion. This is the position of our great
and pious rabbis in the past and the present, in the Holy Land and
abroad, without exception.
In the early years of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for
the Holy Land and the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few
rabbis were caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism shows
its true face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis stand at war
against it just as rabbis of former generations had opposed the false
messiahs of their times, including during the time of the false
messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be obliterated, and the later
movement of the Frankists.
Association with the Zionists is forbidden according to the Torah and
our tradition. Zionism is a disgusting abomination.
This announcement is based on all aspects of Jewish law. Every Jew who
fears G-d will certainly accept our statement under the Code of Jewish
Law and shall not stray from it to the left or the right.
May those who follow it be blessed.
December 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary
Rabbi Shaul Brach
Rabbi Hanoch H. Pack
Rabbi Shmuel Jungreis
Rabbi Shmuel Engel

In fairness to them at that time they could not have known what was to come to Europe. The
later European extreme antisemitism, pogroms, and finally the Holocaust proved them wrong.

Adam

[Giora Drachsler]

WARNING
We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to
announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we
Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah

Yea. By your Torah, at least, behema.

--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Lisa R.]

WARNING
We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to
announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we
Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah

So is intermarriage, and not keeping the Sabbath, and eating shrimp,
but they happen anyways.

Lisa

[Nossy]

QALQILIYA, West Bank, July 10 (AFP) - Until a few months ago, the
Shreim
family could see the plains of central Israel from their living room.
"Now all that we can see is this wall," laments Nabil Abdelfattah
Shreim,
pointing at the huge concrete structure which looms just 20 meters
(yards) in
front of their home.
The eight-meter high wall has been built by the Israeli army to
separate
the 40,000 inhabitants of this West Bank town from Israeli territory.
Located in the north of the West Bank, Qalqiliya is bang on the
Green Line,
the boundary which separates the Jewish state from the Palestinian
territories.
Before the beginning of the Palestinian intifada, or uprising, in
September
2000, Israelis poured into Qalqiliya every Saturday, boosting the
economy of
the town's residents.
But the dozens of suicide bombers who have crossed the frontier to
carry
out their attacks on Israeli targets have persuaded Ariel Sharon's
government
to build a security fence along the length of the West Bank in a bid
to stop
infiltrations.
The barrier normally takes the form of a two-tiered wire fence
which runs
on either side of a road and a ditch. But at Qalqiliya, it transforms
itself
for several kilometres (miles) into a grey concrete wall dotted at
regular
intervals by turrets which allow Israeli soldiers to keep a permanent
eye on
the town.
A defense ministry spokesman told AFP that the first section of the
security fence, which will run for around 130 kilometers (85 miles)
across the
northwest of the West Bank, should be completed by the end of the
month.
The Shreims, who moved into their home two years ago, are the
epitome of
the Palestinian middle classes who prospered in the wake of the 1993
Oslo
peace accords that raised hopes of a brighter future.
Nabil, a 41-year-old car parts salesman, said that he had spent
320,000
dollars on buying and doing up his luxurious home which boasts a
miniature
waterfall in the garden.
But one has to climb up on to the roof of the house to see over the
wall to
the first houses on Israeli territory.
The Shreim family and their neighbours are not the only ones to
suffer as a
result of the wall.
The route chosen by the Israeli authorities for the fence means
that
Qalqiliya finds itself encircled and nearly totally cut off from the
rest of
the West Bank. Its only link to the outside is a single Israeli army
roadblock
in the east of the town.
"We feel like we are in a prison," the town's mayor, Maarouf
Zahran, told
AFP.
Zahran, who is a member of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah
movement, said that 18 factories had already either closed for good or
relocated to elsewhere in the West Bank as a result of the wall.
The mayor said that he could, at a stretch, understand why the
Israelis
wanted to build a fence to the west of Qalqiliya but only on condition
that
the construction conformed exactly to the countours of the Green Line
and did
not creep into Palestinian land.
"We don't have any border with Israel to the north, to the south,
and to
the east ... They have no right to build a wall," added the mayor.
He said that the line of the fence all around Qalqiliya was
designed to
protect more than 20 Jewish settlments in the West Bank, home to more
than 50,
000 people.
The building of the wall has resulted in the destruction or
complete
isolation of 40 percent of the town's farmland as well as depriving
the
Palestinians of 17 natural water sources, he claimed.
"And what good is a state if we cannot control our water or our
land?" said
Zahran.
The wall means that Nabil's wife Nuheila can no longer enjoy the
view of
the sunset through the trees which now lie on the Israeli side.
But despite all their problems, the Shreim family say they have no
intention of leaving.
"It is our house. Where are we meant to go?" said Nabil Shreim.

[David Goldman]

There's Jackie Garbage, spewing his Zionazi garbage again. It looks
like he has thoroughly internalized with self hatred the ideas express
in Mein Kampf, and is thus chanting:

IZRAEL UBER ALLES!!

ZIONISMUS MACHT FREI!!

ARABER RAUS!!

MACHEN SIE PALESTINA ARABREIN, MEHR LEBENSRAUM FUR DEN ZIONISTISCHEN
RIECH ZU BAUEN!!

JAWOHL!!

SIEG HEIL, DER FUHRER SHARON!!

ACHTUNG!!

ANTI-ZIONISTISCHE JUDEN ZU DIE GAZ KAEMMEREN!!

Post by Nossy
But despite all their problems, the Shreim family say they have no
intention of leaving.
"It is our house. Where are we meant to go?" said Nabil Shreim.<

Hopefully, gas chambers and ovens will take care of that problem.

[Boondock Saint]

Post by David Goldman
There's Jackie Garbage, spewing his Zionazi garbage again. It looks
like he has thoroughly internalized with self hatred the ideas express
IZRAEL UBER ALLES!!

Wow, you have exactly described yourself -- as I am sure many Jews have
already called you this, though. I am a gentile Christian and call you this.

You would be one of the guys working for the Nazis in the ghettos.
Believe me. It is that obvious.

They used to say about the Jews, "The Jews don't fight back".

This opinion is changing.

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Boondock Saint

Post by David Goldman
There's Jackie Garbage, spewing his Zionazi garbage again. It looks
like he has thoroughly internalized with self hatred the ideas express
IZRAEL UBER ALLES!!

Wow, you have exactly described yourself -- as I am sure many Jews have
already called you this, though. I am a gentile Christian and call you this.
You would be one of the guys working for the Nazis in the ghettos.
Believe me. It is that obvious.
They used to say about the Jews, "The Jews don't fight back".
This opinion is changing.

Don't be mislead by this poster. He represents a very small, but
vociferous, group, practicizing, with high ardor, a cult close to
Judaism.

--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[JGB]

Post by David Goldman
There's Jackie Garbage, spewing his Zionazi garbage again. It looks
like he has thoroughly internalized with self hatred the ideas express
IZRAEL UBER ALLES!!
ZIONISMUS MACHT FREI!!
ARABER RAUS!!<

Yes, send the Arabs to Williamsburg, Brooklyn, Monsey, New York and
all those other ghettos where Goldsalesman's vermin scurry about. IN
fact, they are already there and taking over businesses that David's
Khazar wholesale and retail slumlord tribe USED to dominate! Oy vey, what
are these learned parasites gonna do when their Palestinian friends
out-shylock them on their own turf? Don't tell me. They'll send their
kids to yeshivas in Jerusalem to lie on the backs of the Israeli welfare
system, which will only mean more Israeli welfare requests to Uncle Sam.

Post by David Goldman
MACHEN SIE PALESTINA ARABREIN, MEHR LEBENSRAUM FUR DEN ZIONISTISCHEN
RIECH ZU BAUEN!!<

That's right. Let's build the Jewish Reich by BREAKING the backs of the
Palestinian terrorists and their Khazar parasite friends instead of
letting them live on the backs of decent Israeli and AMerican taxpayers!

Post by David Goldman
JAWOHL!!
SIEG HEIL, DER FUHRER SHARON!!<

Yisrael, yisrael, UBER ALLES, UBER ALLES in dem Velt!

Post by David Goldman
ACHTUNG!!
ANTI-ZIONISTISCHE JUDEN ZU DIE GAZ KAEMMEREN!!<

Again, from your lips to Allah's ears.

[David Goldman]

One thing I can say about Jackie Garbage. He is an honest Zionazi,
whereas most hide their Nazism behind the veneer of
self-righteousness.

Post by JGB

Post by David Goldman
There's Jackie Garbage, spewing his Zionazi garbage again. It looks
like he has thoroughly internalized with self hatred the ideas express
IZRAEL UBER ALLES!!
ZIONISMUS MACHT FREI!!
ARABER RAUS!!<

Yes, send the Arabs to Williamsburg, Brooklyn, Monsey, New York and
all those other ghettos where Goldsalesman's vermin scurry about. IN
fact, they are already there and taking over businesses that David's
Khazar wholesale and retail slumlord tribe USED to dominate! Oy vey, what
are these learned parasites gonna do when their Palestinian friends
out-shylock them on their own turf? Don't tell me. They'll send their
kids to yeshivas in Jerusalem to lie on the backs of the Israeli welfare
system, which will only mean more Israeli welfare requests to Uncle Sam.

Post by David Goldman
MACHEN SIE PALESTINA ARABREIN, MEHR LEBENSRAUM FUR DEN ZIONISTISCHEN
RIECH ZU BAUEN!!<

That's right. Let's build the Jewish Reich by BREAKING the backs of the
Palestinian terrorists and their Khazar parasite friends instead of
letting them live on the backs of decent Israeli and AMerican taxpayers!

Post by David Goldman
JAWOHL!!
SIEG HEIL, DER FUHRER SHARON!!<

Yisrael, yisrael, UBER ALLES, UBER ALLES in dem Velt!

Post by David Goldman
ACHTUNG!!
ANTI-ZIONISTISCHE JUDEN ZU DIE GAZ KAEMMEREN!!<

Again, from your lips to Allah's ears.

[TonyaK911]

Post by David Goldman
One thing I can say about Jackie Garbage. He is an honest Zionazi,
whereas most hide their Nazism behind the veneer of
self-righteousness.

David Goldman,
What da matter?
David Goldman,
What da fuss?
Jew could do
A little better.
Steam is coming
Outta your ass!

[JGB]

Post by David Goldman
One thing I can say about Jackie Garbage. He is an honest Zionazi,
whereas most hide their Nazism behind the veneer of
self-righteousness.<

And you are a very good, pious Khazar. A guten shabbos.

Post by David Goldman

Post by JGB

Post by David Goldman
There's Jackie Garbage, spewing his Zionazi garbage again. It looks
like he has thoroughly internalized with self hatred the ideas express
IZRAEL UBER ALLES!!
ZIONISMUS MACHT FREI!!
ARABER RAUS!!<

Yes, send the Arabs to Williamsburg, Brooklyn, Monsey, New York and
all those other ghettos where Goldsalesman's vermin scurry about. IN
fact, they are already there and taking over businesses that David's
Khazar wholesale and retail slumlord tribe USED to dominate! Oy vey, what
are these learned parasites gonna do when their Palestinian friends
out-shylock them on their own turf? Don't tell me. They'll send their
kids to yeshivas in Jerusalem to lie on the backs of the Israeli welfare
system, which will only mean more Israeli welfare requests to Uncle Sam.

Post by David Goldman
MACHEN SIE PALESTINA ARABREIN, MEHR LEBENSRAUM FUR DEN ZIONISTISCHEN
RIECH ZU BAUEN!!<

That's right. Let's build the Jewish Reich by BREAKING the backs of the
Palestinian terrorists and their Khazar parasite friends instead of
letting them live on the backs of decent Israeli and AMerican taxpayers!

Post by David Goldman
JAWOHL!!
SIEG HEIL, DER FUHRER SHARON!!<

Yisrael, yisrael, UBER ALLES, UBER ALLES in dem Velt!

Post by David Goldman
ACHTUNG!!
ANTI-ZIONISTISCHE JUDEN ZU DIE GAZ KAEMMEREN!!<

Again, from your lips to Allah's ears.

[Jeffrey Krantz]

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state
is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for
our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians,
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons
do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab
national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct
"Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism." --- Palestine Liberation
Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.

Muslim accomplishments
1970: Murder of American University of Beirut President, Malcolm

Kerr,

in Beirut, Lebanon.
September 1970: TWA #741 and Pan Am #93 hijacked by the PFLP and

flown

to Amman, Jordan.
1972 Eight Arab commandos of Palestinian group Black September kill

11

Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympic Games.
March 1973: U.S. Ambassador Cleo Noel & DCM George Moore murdered in
Khartoum, Sudan.
June 1976: U.S. Ambassador, Francis Meloy and two other Americans
killed in Lebanon.
1979-1980: U.S. Embassy in Iran seized, embassy officials held

hostage

for 14 months.
April 1983: U.S. Embassy in Beirut attacked by Hezbollah suicide
bomber; 49 killed, 120 wounded.
1983 A truck bomb explodes in US Marines' barracks in Beirut,

Lebanon,

killing 241 soldiers. US forces withdraw.
1993 World Trade Center in New York is bombed, killing six.
June 1984: TWA #847 to Athens hijacked to Beirut; U.S. Navy diver,
Robert Stethem murdered.
September 1984: William Buckley, CIA station chief in Beirut,
kidnaped, tortured and murdered.
September 1984: U.S. embassy annex in East Beirut bombed; 2

Americans

killed.
October 1985: Achille Lauro hijacked; Leon Klinghoffer murdered.
September 1986: Pan Am #73 hijacked to Karachi, Pakistan; 17 people
killed, 150 wounded.
February 1988: William Higgins kidnaped in Lebanon and murdered.
December 1988: Pan Am #103 bombed over Lockerbie, Scotland; 270

people

killed.
March 1995: American employees of the U.S. consulate in Karachi,
Pakistan killed in response to arrest of World Trade Center bombing

suspect.

November 1995: U.S. troops attacked in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia; five
Americans killed.
1996 A truck bomb explodes outside a US military barracks in Khobar,
Saudi Arabia, killing 19 US airmen.
1997 Egyptian Islamic Group massacres 62 people, mostly foreign
tourists, in Luxor, Egypt. The group claims it is retaliation for US
imprisonment of Sheikh Omar Abdel al-Rahman, who is later convicted in

1993

World Trade Center bombing.
1998 Bombs explode outside US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania,

killing

224 people.
1999 Islamic militants, traced to bin Laden, are arrested for plot

to

bomb tourist sites during millennium celebrations.
2001 Islamic hijackers crash two planes into World Trade Center in

New

York, one into Pentagon, and one in Pennsylvania. More than 3,000 people

are

dead or missing.

Post by David Goldman
One thing I can say about Jackie Garbage. He is an honest Zionazi,
whereas most hide their Nazism behind the veneer of
self-righteousness.<

And you are a very good, pious Khazar. A guten shabbos.

Post by David Goldman

Post by JGB

Post by David Goldman
There's Jackie Garbage, spewing his Zionazi garbage again. It looks
like he has thoroughly internalized with self hatred the ideas express
IZRAEL UBER ALLES!!
ZIONISMUS MACHT FREI!!
ARABER RAUS!!<

Yes, send the Arabs to Williamsburg, Brooklyn, Monsey, New York and
all those other ghettos where Goldsalesman's vermin scurry about. IN
fact, they are already there and taking over businesses that David's
Khazar wholesale and retail slumlord tribe USED to dominate! Oy vey, what
are these learned parasites gonna do when their Palestinian friends
out-shylock them on their own turf? Don't tell me. They'll send their
kids to yeshivas in Jerusalem to lie on the backs of the Israeli welfare
system, which will only mean more Israeli welfare requests to Uncle Sam.

Post by David Goldman
MACHEN SIE PALESTINA ARABREIN, MEHR LEBENSRAUM FUR DEN ZIONISTISCHEN
RIECH ZU BAUEN!!<

That's right. Let's build the Jewish Reich by BREAKING the backs of the
Palestinian terrorists and their Khazar parasite friends instead of
letting them live on the backs of decent Israeli and AMerican taxpayers!

Post by David Goldman
JAWOHL!!
SIEG HEIL, DER FUHRER SHARON!!<

Yisrael, yisrael, UBER ALLES, UBER ALLES in dem Velt!

Post by David Goldman
ACHTUNG!!
ANTI-ZIONISTISCHE JUDEN ZU DIE GAZ KAEMMEREN!!<

Again, from your lips to Allah's ears.

[Boondock Saint]

Post by Nossy
QALQILIYA, West Bank, July 10 (AFP) - Until a few months ago, the
Shreim
family could see the plains of central Israel from their living room.
"Now all that we can see is this wall," laments Nabil Abdelfattah
Shreim, <

Great! Now what is needed is barbed wire, towers and stockades, surrounded
by mines and a gas chamber. The next Naqba should be a GENUINE HOLOCAUST
so that when the Arabs call us ZioNazis, that at least the charge will be
an honest one for a change. They should know clearly what is awaiting them
the next time they decide to go on a Jew-killing spree.
At the very least, we don't want to have to look at them, or have them look
at us. Let them look towards Jordan or Iraq for a nice view.

Hah! A truthful man.

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Nossy
QALQILIYA, West Bank, July 10 (AFP) - Until a few months ago, the
Shreim
family could see the plains of central Israel from their living room.
"Now all that we can see is this wall," laments Nabil Abdelfattah
Shreim, <

The best way to check the efficiency of a measure is to listen to the
laments on the other side. Other, much more serious, comments
against the wall we hear from the trespasser complaining that the
wall is impassable. Let me remind you all, a 20 foot, impassable
wall is erected between Israel and the PA. Now look who's
unhappy! The Palis that want to bypass the border checkpoints
in their way to Israel.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[dogbert]

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by Nossy
QALQILIYA, West Bank, July 10 (AFP) - Until a few months ago, the
Shreim
family could see the plains of central Israel from their living room.
"Now all that we can see is this wall," laments Nabil Abdelfattah
Shreim, <

The best way to check the efficiency of a measure is to listen to the
laments on the other side. Other, much more serious, comments
against the wall we hear from the trespasser complaining that the
wall is impassable. Let me remind you all, a 20 foot, impassable
wall is erected between Israel and the PA.

Between Israel ? - the fence is not on the green line. It is just another
way to steal land from the poor. What a despicable and shameful
enterprise.

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by dogbert

Post by Giora Drachsler
The best way to check the efficiency of a measure is to listen to the
laments on the other side. Other, much more serious, comments
against the wall we hear from the trespasser complaining that the
wall is impassable. Let me remind you all, a 20 foot, impassable
wall is erected between Israel and the PA.

Between Israel ? - the fence is not on the green line. It is just another
way to steal land from the poor. What a despicable and shameful
enterprise.

It's not built on the border, but where it's most efficient in stopping
the illegal infiltration from the PA to Israel. From the outcries we
hear, we can safely assume the wall will be effective
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[eric shinerman]

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by dogbert

Post by Giora Drachsler
The best way to check the efficiency of a measure is to listen to the
laments on the other side. Other, much more serious, comments
against the wall we hear from the trespasser complaining that the
wall is impassable. Let me remind you all, a 20 foot, impassable
wall is erected between Israel and the PA.

Between Israel ? - the fence is not on the green line. It is just another
way to steal land from the poor. What a despicable and shameful
enterprise.

It's not built on the border, but where it's most efficient in stopping
the illegal infiltration from the PA to Israel. From the outcries we
hear, we can safely assume the wall will be effective

Words worthy of Juergen Stroop, Drachsler. You remember Stroop, don't
you?
Wasn't he "IDF"?

Post by Giora Drachsler
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by eric shinerman

Post by Giora Drachsler
It's not built on the border, but where it's most efficient in stopping
the illegal infiltration from the PA to Israel. From the outcries we
hear, we can safely assume the wall will be effective

Words worthy of Juergen Stroop, Drachsler. You remember Stroop, don't
you?
Wasn't he "IDF"?

You are better at sex than anyone; now all you need is a partner.


--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[JGB]

Post by dogbert

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by Nossy
QALQILIYA, West Bank, July 10 (AFP) - Until a few months ago, the
Shreim
family could see the plains of central Israel from their living room.
"Now all that we can see is this wall," laments Nabil Abdelfattah
Shreim, <

The best way to check the efficiency of a measure is to listen to the
laments on the other side. Other, much more serious, comments
against the wall we hear from the trespasser complaining that the
wall is impassable. Let me remind you all, a 20 foot, impassable
wall is erected between Israel and the PA.

Between Israel ? - the fence is not on the green line. It is just another
way to steal land from the poor. What a despicable and shameful
enterprise.<

Jordan attacked Israel in 1967, not the other way around. NO Arab
state recognized Israel NOR the 1949 armistice lines, and indeed, Palestinian
terrorists kept crossing into ISrael to kill ISraelis. So if the Arabs didn't
recognize the 1949 armistice lines as ISrael's borders, why should Israel??
If the Palestinian ARabs NOW want to establish a border with Israel, they
should negotiate one in a peaceful way. If not, Israel has the right to make
its own border wherever it feels like between the Mediterranean and the
Jordan river, which Israel does now recognize as the Kingdom of Jordan's
western border.

[David Goldman]

There's Jackie Garbage again.........Well, since the UN resolution
recommending partition was not binding, why should ANY country have to
recognize the Zionist state??!! Since Zionists believe only in Might
makes Right, what happens when the Zionist Reich runs out of Might??!!

Post by JGB

Post by dogbert

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by Nossy
QALQILIYA, West Bank, July 10 (AFP) - Until a few months ago, the
Shreim
family could see the plains of central Israel from their living room.
"Now all that we can see is this wall," laments Nabil Abdelfattah
Shreim, <

The best way to check the efficiency of a measure is to listen to the
laments on the other side. Other, much more serious, comments
against the wall we hear from the trespasser complaining that the
wall is impassable. Let me remind you all, a 20 foot, impassable
wall is erected between Israel and the PA.

Between Israel ? - the fence is not on the green line. It is just another
way to steal land from the poor. What a despicable and shameful
enterprise.<

Jordan attacked Israel in 1967, not the other way around. NO Arab
state recognized Israel NOR the 1949 armistice lines, and indeed, Palestinian
terrorists kept crossing into ISrael to kill ISraelis. So if the Arabs didn't
recognize the 1949 armistice lines as ISrael's borders, why should Israel??
If the Palestinian ARabs NOW want to establish a border with Israel, they
should negotiate one in a peaceful way. If not, Israel has the right to make
its own border wherever it feels like between the Mediterranean and the
Jordan river, which Israel does now recognize as the Kingdom of Jordan's
western border.

[JGB]

There's Jackie Garbage again........<

Oh, here is the Khazar subhuman whose name contains two lies: that he
is a man, and that he is gold. Probably changed from Khazardrek to Goldman
when they allowed it into the country.

Well, since the UN resolution
recommending partition was not binding, why should ANY country have to
recognize the Zionist state??!!<

Well the US and Russia both did, as did many others, and since the ARabs
didn't, they shouldn't hypocritically speak of the "1967 borders" when
they, like you, recognized no such Jewish state nor any such borders.

Since Zionists believe only in Might
makes Right, what happens when the Zionist Reich runs out of Might??!!>

Looks like the Arabs are running out of Macht faster than the Israelis. So
what do you propose, that they pray to Yoel Teitelbaum, or wait
for "eitzos" from your same Hungarian rabbis who said that Hitler
would "blow over," and then beat a hasty retreat only to leave their
stupid flock of sheep behind for the slaughter?
Between Israel ? - the fence is not on the green line. It is just another

Post by JGB

Post by dogbert
way to steal land from the poor. What a despicable and shameful
enterprise.<

Jordan attacked Israel in 1967, not the other way around. NO Arab
state recognized Israel NOR the 1949 armistice lines, and indeed, Palestinian
terrorists kept crossing into ISrael to kill ISraelis. So if the Arabs didn't
recognize the 1949 armistice lines as ISrael's borders, why should Israel??
If the Palestinian ARabs NOW want to establish a border with Israel, they
should negotiate one in a peaceful way. If not, Israel has the right to make
its own border wherever it feels like between the Mediterranean and the
Jordan river, which Israel does now recognize as the Kingdom of Jordan's
western border.

[JGB]

Excerpted from the "Pictorial History of the Jewish People." (1953)
Author: Nathan Ausubel; Published by Crown. New York.

"It is thought that ever since the fall of the Jewish kingdom of
Khazaria in 970 C.E., when the Jews from that country sought refuge
^^^^^^^^
in the north of Hungary, there has been an unbroken continuity of
Jewish life in Hungary (sic). In Hungary, as in other lands, the
inevitable ebb and flow of migrations, expulsions and flights from
massacres changed the national composition of the Jewish population.
During the Crusades and after the Black Death, there were many
emigrants to Hungary from Germany and Bohemia. By the sixteenth
century there were four thousand Jews living in thirteen
communities, the largest in Buda Ofen and Pressburg. During the
first half of the nineteenth century there was a powerful migration
from Galicia, and as a consequence, by 1850 there were several
hundred thousand Jews in Hungary..."

WARNING
We the undersigned have met on the date indicated below, and wish to
announce publicly that after a careful examination of the issues we
Zionism is absolutely and totally forbidden by our Torah
Zionism has proved itself to be a false ideology that is very far from
the faith of our Torah. Zionism is extremely dangerous and destructive
to our religion.
Therefore, we request and admonish every person who still retains a
DO NOT GO IN THE WAYS OF THE ZIONISTS, KEEP AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE
THEIR ENTIRE WAY IS EVIL.
It is forbidden to associate with this sect, to support them in any
way whatsoever!
As far as we are concerned this issue is of extreme important and
affects the spiritual and physical existence of our People, and shall
be presented to the national assembly of the Orthodox Bureau, who will
analyze this matter.
Therefore, every intelligent person must realize that it is forbidden
to attend any of the assemblies held by the Zionists whatsoever!
May those who listen to us be blessed.
City of Desh, Hungary - Wednesday, June 2, 1920
Rabbi David Greenwald Rabbi Yehezkel Panet Rabbi Chaim Zvi
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Avraham Y. Freund Rabbi Shaul Brach Rabbi Shlomo
Zalman Ollman
Rabbi Yaakov E. Panet Rabbi Yisrael Freund Rabbi Moshe D.
Teitelbaum
Rabbi Menachem Sofer Rabbi Avraham S. Katz Rabbi Avraham S.
Eliash
Please post in all synagogues!
RABBINICAL COURT OF THE ORTHODOX COMMUNITY OF EDAS YESHURUN, City of
Kaszica, Hungary
URGENT NOTICE
It is our obligation to make a public announcement because we know the
extent to which the issues are important. Despite all its propaganda,
the Zionist movement stands in total opposition to the foundations of
the Jewish faith transmitted to us throughout the generations. Zionism
itself rejects the Jewish religion. This is the position of our great
and pious rabbis in the past and the present, in the Holy Land and
abroad, without exception.
In the early years of Zionism, when it pretended to express love for
the Holy Land and the holiness of the opportunity to live there, a few
rabbis were caught in its snare. Today, however, when Zionism shows
its true face as a false messianic movement, our rabbis stand at war
against it just as rabbis of former generations had opposed the false
messiahs of their times, including during the time of the false
messiah Shabtai Zevi, may his name be obliterated, and the later
movement of the Frankists.
Association with the Zionists is forbidden according to the Torah and
our tradition. Zionism is a disgusting abomination.
This announcement is based on all aspects of Jewish law. Every Jew who
fears G-d will certainly accept our statement under the Code of Jewish
Law and shall not stray from it to the left or the right.
May those who follow it be blessed.
December 14, 1925, Kaszica, Hungary
Rabbi Shaul Brach
Rabbi Hanoch H. Pack
Rabbi Shmuel Jungreis
Rabbi Shmuel Engel

[David Goldman]

Isn't it something the way the Zionist regime is always complaining,
always kvetching, always shooting off its big mouth, always giving
orders, always telling everyone what to do.
And why don't the nations demand that the Zionists be disarmed of
THEIR weapons of mass destruction? The Zionists think that only THEY
are allowed to have WMD in the Middle East.......


Last update - 02:44 11/07/2003
Israel demanding complete halt to enriched uranium production in Iran
By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent

Israel has hardened its position on Iran's nuclear program and is now
demanding that the international community bring the enriched uranium
production in Iran to a complete halt. Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom
will present this position in his meetings with European leaders in
the coming days.

Previously Israel supported the demand that Iran sign the Additional
Protocol of the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and accept tighter
nuclear inspections of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).
Iran is now under massive international pressure to increase the
transparency of its nuclear program and accept international
supervision, to ensure the project is used for peaceful purposes - as
the Iranians say - rather than for the development of nuclear weapons.

Tehran has indicated, under pressure, that it would accept the
Additional Protocol, which was introduced after the 1991 discovery of
Iraq's secret atomic weapons program. The Additional Protocol would
give the IAEA access to more information about Iran's nuclear
activities and the right to carry out more intrusive inspections on
short notice.

Iranian President Mohammed Khatami hosted IAEA director Mohamed
ElBaradei on Wednesday and told him Iran views the Additional rotocol
"positively," but wants further clarifications. ElBaradei said the two
had agreed to the dispatch of an IAEA team next week to clarify
Iranian concerns over tighter nuclear inspections.

Israeli experts believe that tightening international nuclear
inspection without imposing restrictions on the Iranian project is
dangerous. First, the Iranians can "play for time" in the talks on
joining the Additional Protocol and even after signing, the tighter
inspection may not be enacted automatically. Thus the Iranians could
produce a nuclear bomb under cover of the extended talks with the
IAEA.

Secondly, the experts said, Iran will demand in exchange for signing
the Additional Protocol an international agreement to continue
producing enriched uranium, thus continuing the nuclear project under
seeming transparency.

The European Union adopted a tougher stand toward Iran in recent weeks
and decided to condition their negotiations over a new trade agreement
on increasing the openness and transparency of the Iranian nuclear
program.

Officials in Jerusalem expressed satisfaction with the plan presented
about three weeks ago by EU foreign policy and security chief Javier
Solana to halt the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.
Solana's plan, which was also sent to Prime Minsiter Ariel Sharon,
proposes several ways to enforce the regulations. These include
international agreements, inspection mechanisms, political and
economic sanctions and as a last resort the use of force.

Solana underscores the need for a universal approach in dealing with
weapons of mass destruction (a possible veiled reference to Israel's
nuclear program), but states that the main problem is keeping
agreements and this is what the EU must concentrate its efforts on.

[Jamie]

Post by David Goldman
Isn't it something the way the Zionist regime is always complaining,
always kvetching, always shooting off its big mouth, always giving
orders, always telling everyone what to do.

Sort of pales in comparison to the psychosis excreted by the nutjobs
of Neutrei Karta.

[Susan Cohen]

Post by Jamie

Post by David Goldman
Isn't it something the way the Zionist regime is always complaining,
always kvetching, always shooting off its big mouth, always giving
orders, always telling everyone what to do.

Sort of pales in comparison to the psychosis excreted by the nutjobs
of Neutrei Karta.

& their pro-terrorist Arab (as opposed to the others) buddies.

Susan

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by David Goldman
Isn't it something the way the Zionist regime is always complaining,
always kvetching, always shooting off its big mouth, always giving
orders, always telling everyone what to do.
And why don't the nations demand that the Zionists be disarmed of
THEIR weapons of mass destruction? The Zionists think that only THEY
are allowed to have WMD in the Middle East.......

Try to imagine what would have NK do, if they would have WMD? Or
the Palis?

So far, our "Israeli" NKKK, have only stinking diapers, but look how
well they use them, especially these days when the big, pre-Rosh
HaShana schnorr just begun.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[David Goldman]

Here he goes again......complaining, whining, kvetching, and GIVING
ORDERS. What a scum, what a piece of Zionist filth.

ROME, July 11 (AFP) - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told
European
leaders to follow Italy's example and isolate Palestinian leader
Yasser
Arafat, in an interview published here Friday.
"The European Union must understand that by refusing to finance
Arafat and
by supporting Abu Mazen (nom de guerre of Palestinian prime minister
Mahmud
Abbas), one can get results," he told the Corriere della Sera.
"Italy, with which we have excellent relations, has understood
this. Prime
Minister (Silvio) Berlusconi did not meet Arafat when he came to
Israel."
"Other countries behave in a different way: they send him their
leaders,
they send him messengers and messages. That is a big mistake," Sharon
continued.
"I would like to tell European countries to follow the Italian
example," he
said, adding that this was addressed to "almost all European
countries".
Israel and the United States have blamed continuing insecurity and
suicide
attacks on Arafat, and have sidelined him in negotiations on a
proposed
roadmap for a peaceful settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Top Palestinian officials, including Abbas, refused to meet
Berlusconi
during his trip to the Middle East last month in protest at his
decision to
boycott Arafat. The Italian premier was also criticised by other
European
leaders.
Sharon is to leave Sunday for an official visit to Britain, before
heading
for Norway.
"I'm going to Europe to get support, to ask for a more balanced
attitude
with respect to the Middle East, so that the Italian example is copied
and so
we can really help peace."
Italy currently holds the European Union's six-month rotating
presidency,
and Berlusconi has hopes of playing a role in the Middle East peace
process
during this time.
Berlusconi has several times offered to hold a peace summit on
Italy's
southern island of Sicily, and has also invited Abbas to visit later
this
month.
csg/co/mkh

[Alon Katzir]

Kvetching Goldman??? Kvetching?? What are you trying to prove here? That you
are a Yiddish boy???

Post by David Goldman
Here he goes again......complaining, whining, kvetching, and GIVING
ORDERS. What a scum, what a piece of Zionist filth.
ROME, July 11 (AFP) - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told
European
leaders to follow Italy's example and isolate Palestinian leader
Yasser
Arafat, in an interview published here Friday.
"The European Union must understand that by refusing to finance
Arafat and
by supporting Abu Mazen (nom de guerre of Palestinian prime minister
Mahmud
Abbas), one can get results," he told the Corriere della Sera.
"Italy, with which we have excellent relations, has understood
this. Prime
Minister (Silvio) Berlusconi did not meet Arafat when he came to
Israel."
"Other countries behave in a different way: they send him their
leaders,
they send him messengers and messages. That is a big mistake," Sharon
continued.
"I would like to tell European countries to follow the Italian
example," he
said, adding that this was addressed to "almost all European
countries".
Israel and the United States have blamed continuing insecurity and
suicide
attacks on Arafat, and have sidelined him in negotiations on a
proposed
roadmap for a peaceful settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Top Palestinian officials, including Abbas, refused to meet
Berlusconi
during his trip to the Middle East last month in protest at his
decision to
boycott Arafat. The Italian premier was also criticised by other
European
leaders.
Sharon is to leave Sunday for an official visit to Britain, before
heading
for Norway.
"I'm going to Europe to get support, to ask for a more balanced
attitude
with respect to the Middle East, so that the Italian example is copied
and so
we can really help peace."
Italy currently holds the European Union's six-month rotating
presidency,
and Berlusconi has hopes of playing a role in the Middle East peace
process
during this time.
Berlusconi has several times offered to hold a peace summit on
Italy's
southern island of Sicily, and has also invited Abbas to visit later
this
month.
csg/co/mkh

[Theodore Herzl]

Post by David Goldman
Here he goes again......complaining, whining, kvetching, and GIVING
ORDERS. What a scum, what a piece of Zionist filth.

They ought to agree with isolation Arafat only if Sharon will attend a
meeting in Belgium to finalize this historic alliance and to discuss
other agenda items like a war crimes tribunal. : )

Post by David Goldman
ROME, July 11 (AFP) - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told
European
leaders to follow Italy's example and isolate Palestinian leader
Yasser
Arafat, in an interview published here Friday.
"The European Union must understand that by refusing to finance
Arafat and
by supporting Abu Mazen (nom de guerre of Palestinian prime minister
Mahmud
Abbas), one can get results," he told the Corriere della Sera.
"Italy, with which we have excellent relations, has understood
this. Prime
Minister (Silvio) Berlusconi did not meet Arafat when he came to
Israel."
"Other countries behave in a different way: they send him their
leaders,
they send him messengers and messages. That is a big mistake," Sharon
continued.
"I would like to tell European countries to follow the Italian
example," he
said, adding that this was addressed to "almost all European
countries".
Israel and the United States have blamed continuing insecurity and
suicide
attacks on Arafat, and have sidelined him in negotiations on a
proposed
roadmap for a peaceful settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Top Palestinian officials, including Abbas, refused to meet
Berlusconi
during his trip to the Middle East last month in protest at his
decision to
boycott Arafat. The Italian premier was also criticised by other
European
leaders.
Sharon is to leave Sunday for an official visit to Britain, before
heading
for Norway.
"I'm going to Europe to get support, to ask for a more balanced
attitude
with respect to the Middle East, so that the Italian example is copied
and so
we can really help peace."
Italy currently holds the European Union's six-month rotating
presidency,
and Berlusconi has hopes of playing a role in the Middle East peace
process
during this time.
Berlusconi has several times offered to hold a peace summit on
Italy's
southern island of Sicily, and has also invited Abbas to visit later
this
month.
csg/co/mkh

[David Goldman]

w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last update - 02:06 14/07/2003
Israel seen as `quite dangerous' for investments
By Oded Hermoni

"Our investments in Israeli companies are dependent on developments in
the peace process," said Kamran Elahian, manager of Global Catalyst
Partners (GCP) and one of the prominent entrepreneurs in Silicon
Valley in the past decade.

"At the moment, it is quite dangerous to invest in Israel and our
investors, which include Americans and Japanese, are worried. We will
apparently not be making as many investments here as we did in the
past unless we are confident that a war will not erupt in the region,"
he said during a recent visit to Israel.

Even though Israeli entrepreneurs have heard such statements from
foreign investors many times over the past two years, sources in the
venture capital industry put considerable weight in Elahian's words in
light of his deep connections with Israel and his heavy involvement in
several economic and social projects here.

There is another reason, however, for the seriousness with which
Elahian's words were received. During his visit to Israel in June
2001, Elahian found it difficult to understand the investors who were
taking their business elsewhere due to the renewal of the intifada.

"After the earthquake in San Francisco in 1989," recalled Elahian in
an interview with Haaretz two years ago, "investors also asked me why
companies should build headquarters in Silicon Valley, which is in the
danger zone. Now they are asking me why they should invest in Israel.
But I am not afraid," he insisted.

"We have to be realistic," he said, hastening to explain the change in
his attitude in the past two years. "What I said before was based on
the belief that the crisis in Israel would be short. But the crisis
has dragged on and the foreign investors are not interested in waiting
any longer. We approached 21 universities about investing in us, but
they all refused. Our investments in Israel were one of the reasons
for their refusal."

Israel had a place of honor in GCP, the first venture capital fund set
up by Elahian in 1999, which managed $50 million of investments. Some
50 percent of the investments GCP made were in Israeli companies,
three of which were particularly close to Elahian's heart: Actelis
Networks, Cahoots (which changed its name to Informative and moved to
the United States) and KangarooNet (which changed its name to
Entopia). Elahian also served as a member of the advisory council of
the Vertex Israeli VC fund.

"The investments of the first fund really focused on Israel, and we
were satisfied with their results," said Elahian. "But the second
fund, of $108 million from different investors than those in the first
fund, has so far made a third of its investments and not one of them
is in Israel."

Nevertheless, Elahian noted that he still values Israeli technology
and is continuing to invest in American companies founded by Israelis.
"There is a mingling of cultures in Silicon Valley," said Elahian.
"The entrepreneurs are East Indian, Chinese, Iranian, Israeli or
Russians and Americans. I have no doubt that this combination of
cultures contributes to the success of the companies."

Elahian is without a doubt one of the most extraordinary figures to
come out of Silicon Valley in recent years. He was born in Iran in
1954 and at the age of 18 immigrated to the U.S., where he completed
degrees in mathematics and computers. In 1978, he arrived in Silicon
Valley as a software engineer for Hewlett-Packard, but left that
company to set up an independent software company, CAE, which was sold
three years later for $75 million. In 1984, Elahian set up the Circus
Logic semiconductor company, which went public five years later at a
market value of $150 million. In 1989, Elahian set up Momenta, his
first resounding failure, which crashed after three years and burned
up an investment of $40 million.

Following this failure, Elahian decided to donate most of his income
from any companies he set up in the future to charitable organizations
that he would also establish. One such organization is called
Schoolonline, which connects schools in outlying areas around the
world to the Internet, which Elahian views as the main tool for
improving the lot of weak societies. Elahian has already transferred
his holdings in Planet Web and Centillium to the charitable
organizations.

"It makes life simpler," he explained. "I set up a company, sell it or
help it go public, and donate my shares. Then I don't have to worry if
their value rose or fell. It is easier for me without money. I have no
plane or yacht like my friends in the valley, and after I visited Gaza
and saw 23 people in one room, I have no problem making do with a
four-room apartment rather than a huge house worth millions."

Elahian's Iranian origin and the fact that he is not Jewish are a
source of trouble from the security authorities during his visits to
Israel, which is why he carries around his own private passport that
he presents to prove that he has no ill intentions - a collection of
the articles written about him in various newspapers. Despite these
difficulties and the current crisis in Israel, Elahian plans to
continue coming to Israel and to keep up the local activities of GCP,
along with its activities in India, Europe, the U.S. and Singapore.

"With the first fund, we conducted an experiment with the leading
(venture capital) funds in the U.S.," said Elahian. "We made direct
high involvement investments in eight companies and acquired minority
holdings in 13 others, together with other funds, which took the lead.
Eight of those 13 failed, but the eight companies in which we invested
directly and maintained high involvement are still alive.

"The lesson we learned from this," concluded Elahian, "is that one
needs real involvement in companies, and we plan to stick with this
strategy in the future."

[JGB]

Post by David Goldman
w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last update - 02:06 14/07/2003
Israel seen as `quite dangerous' for investments
By Oded Hermoni
"Our investments in Israeli companies are dependent on developments in
the peace process," said Kamran Elahian, manager of Global Catalyst
Partners (GCP) and one of the prominent entrepreneurs in Silicon
Valley in the past decade.

(skip)

Post by David Goldman
Nevertheless, Elahian noted that he still values Israeli technology
and is continuing to invest in American companies founded by Israelis.

(Skip)

Post by David Goldman
Elahian's Iranian origin and the fact that he is not Jewish are a
source of trouble from the security authorities during his visits to
Israel, which is why he carries around his own private passport that
he presents to prove that he has no ill intentions - a collection of
the articles written about him in various newspapers. Despite these
difficulties and the current crisis in Israel, Elahian plans to
continue coming to Israel and to keep up the local activities of GCP,
along with its activities in India, Europe, the U.S. and Singapore.

[Norma]

David! Are you predicting again??? Then you invest elsewhere, and I
will keep mine with increased shares. Norma

Norma, it just mkes David feel better posting stuff like this. It is a

sign

of desperation. It helps reinforce his belief that G_d will annhilate

the

State of Israel so that the Messiah can come. :-)
Tilly

Yes, I know, Tilly. Things these days are really somewhat interesting if
one wants to converse, but... Norma

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by David Goldman
Israel seen as `quite dangerous' for investments
By Oded Hermoni
"Our investments in Israeli companies are dependent on developments in
the peace process," said Kamran Elahian, manager of Global Catalyst
Partners (GCP) and one of the prominent entrepreneurs in Silicon
Valley in the past decade.

I wonder if you read the article - probably not, but you liked the
headline, because, if you would have, you'd quickly find out that
the article body doesn't reflect its headline. This superficial
intelligence,
typical to the bigots, is the mother of all evil - people of your kind
grow up with a very limited insight and reasoning, behema.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Tilly]

And you are in luv with a libeling asshole Tilly so you must love
shit.
--
MattA

LOL.

That's the only response your silly post deserves.

Tilly
--
***@hotmail.com

[swagman]

David! Are you predicting again??? Then you invest elsewhere, and I
will keep mine with increased shares. Norma

Norma, it just mkes David feel better posting stuff like this. It is a

sign

of desperation. It helps reinforce his belief that G_d will annhilate

the

State of Israel so that the Messiah can come. :-)
Tilly

I don't know if God will bother with Zionists but Palestinians are doing a
good job at it!

[g***@hotmail.com]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:50:48 -0400, David Goldman <***@erols.com>
wrote:

Remember your predictions about the Shekel, when it was at over 5/1
against the dollar ?

[David Goldman]

From the book of Zvi Weinman, "Know What to Respond," published in
Jerusalem in 1998 regarding Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan's statement back
in the year 1900!!

It was the custom of Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan, the author of Chafetz
Chaim, to refrain from public protest, and therefore he apparently
refrained from joining the announcement against the Zionist movement.
Subsequently, however, "when the newspapers were filled with hundreds
of articles about nationalism," Rabbi Kagan departed from his custom
and reacted very vociferously. In an article entitled To Faithful Jews
(see the Hebrew newspaper, Hamodia, Nov. 9, 1990) Rabbi Kagan wrote
the following:

"I call on you, those who are faithful to Judaism to listen to my
words. You are devoted to the word of G-d, and his commandments and
Torah are more precious to you than anything else. The complete and
perfect Torah that was transmitted to us by our forefathers with all
its warnings in every generation is precious and loved by every
devoted Jew, who is willing to give his life and blood for every one
of its laws. We have received from our forefathers and their
forefathers the principle of self-sacrifice in order to maintain the
Torah and its commandments. We also accept the rule of heaven and the
commandments every day with all our hearts and soul, as is known.

Therefore, my friends, let me ask you about news that we are hearing,
about the loud noise about "Zion, Zion." We hear these words recently
from people who want to base the entire Torah on the single word
"Zion." They want to say that a Zionist is an honorable and respected
Jew EVEN if he is very far from the laws of G-d and his Torah, and
vice versa, that a person who refrains from affiliating with the
Zionist movement, EVEN if he is loyal to G-d and observes his religion
as every faithful Jew, it is not appropriate for him to be called a
Jew!

Woe to us because of such talk. Who instructed them this way? Who told
them to talk this way - to place the entire Torah on a single word?
Even the simplest Jew, who does not know all the writings of the
Talmud and legal codes, knows full well that although living a holy
life in the Holy Land is an important commandment, however it is
forbidden to violate any part of the Torah for this purpose! G-d does
not want Jews living in the Holy Land if they violate even ONE law of
the Torah!

What will our children and any intelligent person think when they see
thousands of Jews devoting themselves to just this ONE idea and yet
forget about the entire Torah, ignoring in this error Torah education
and everything else that is sacred because they simply have one
'commandment' in this religion?"

[TonyaK911]

Alon, so very true. It would seem that the drive is to stir up controversy -
no more, no less. Those that aren't assisting their bretheren in the process
of Redemption, are just helping our enemies. Unfortunately, they are stuck
in the mire of spiritual illness - and it will take nothing short of a
miracle to get them out of Egypt at this point.
Those that are tapped in and connected to Achdut Ha'am - Unification of our
People - and you know who you are - must keep on doing what we're doing. Let
Hashem deal with the insolent and scorners with His perfect Justice.
Blessings,
Yechidah

You are so right, Chabad!
Thanx for the post.
TK9

Couldn't you find anything from an earlier date than that??? Come on Goldi
... get a life. Why don't you try devoting your free time to helping out
other Jews in need, rather than waste it on posting junk on this news
groups..

[Tilly]

Alon, so very true. It would seem that the drive is to stir up
controversy - no more, no less. Those that aren't assisting their
bretheren in the process of Redemption, are just helping our enemies.
Unfortunately, they are stuck in the mire of spiritual illness - and
it will take nothing short of a miracle to get them out of Egypt at
this point.
Those that are tapped in and connected to Achdut Ha'am - Unification
of our People - and you know who you are - must keep on doing what
we're doing. Let Hashem deal with the insolent and scorners with His
perfect Justice.
Blessings,
Yechidah

Excellent post Chabad.

Tilly
***@hotmail.com

[Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman]

Redemption must be taken very seriously Giora - of course we are
commanded to serve Hashem with Joy - so - all is right and balanced
in the world.
Have a good week,
Yechidah

Very true but that leave a question in the hearts of many injured by
another's actions. What constitutes a genuine sign of redemption? Does it
not require of those working or seeking such to ask for such. Is that not
the spirit of the Day of Yom Kippur? One must reflect with honesty and see
the wrongs they committed then and only then can there be *Redemption*.
To just stop doing what caused harm is not what is asked of by G_d, it takes
real action to try to make right the wrong. Thus the story of what happened
in this newsgroup with Mike's Libels of me. His stopping now is not
Redemption, it is a start. He must take action in life now to undo to
whatever extent he is able that damage done. And if someone entered that
fight on the side of a libeler like Mike, and cannot see that was not right,
then they too must undo what they did to have redemption.

It takes real action not just words to get Redemption as Rebbees of great
scholorly knowledge of the subject have taught for 100s of Generations if
not thousands.

They also teach that what one dishes out comes back 1000 fold to that
person. That they must ask forgiveness or they will get back far worse than
they did to the others. Tilly was taught that one. She Joined in on one
attack on my Mother and Father, not here to defend themselves and took great
offense when I said one thing about her beloved Grandmother. She is still
not redeemed. In fact the old laws say that for her and Mikes False
Unsupported Witness the punishment would be stoning and if they survived
that banishment from all the Civilized Jewish Tribes for all time. That was
the way toward Redemption of the heart in those days. Sometimes I wish that
is when I lived. I would have the right to Mike's head on a stake outside
my tent.



--
MattA
mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

I am asking for a vote on the new site name dedicated to the Libel
Posts of Mike Shultz.


Suggestions to date that were emailed to me are:

1) The Big Lies - posts by M. Shultz -
http://www.(webhost).com/shutlzeeeee/

2) Is this another troll?. - http://www.(webhost).com/mike_the_troll/

3) Mike the libeling SOB - - http://www.(webhost).com/mike_s_libeler/

4) Post of a libeler --- -
http://www.(webhost).com/mikeeee_boy_libeler/

5) Samples of libels on Usenet ---
http://www.(webhost).com/posts_of_mike_ds_shutlz/


Or submit a new entry.

Just use the mail links below to vote

mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_1

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[ChabadRainbow]

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman

Redemption must be taken very seriously Giora - of course we are
commanded to serve Hashem with Joy - so - all is right and balanced
in the world.
Have a good week,
Yechidah

Very true but that leave a question in the hearts of many injured by
another's actions. What constitutes a genuine sign of redemption?

Personal redemption of a Jew and Redemption of the Jewish people are one of
the same. How can one Jew be redeemed without effecting the entire
community? It goes without saying that when we get closer to our own
essence, soul, clearing away spiritual debris of the Yetzer and doing
Teshuva fully and whole-heartedly - footsteps of Mashiach can't be far away.
Love Thy Neighbor becomes each Jew's goal.


Does it

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
not require of those working or seeking such to ask for such. Is that not
the spirit of the Day of Yom Kippur? One must reflect with honesty and see
the wrongs they committed then and only then can there be *Redemption*.

Redemption is 24/7-365. Every moment is potential for Redemption. It is a
matter of surrendering to Hashem's will and doing not what *I* think is
right - but what Hashem deems as right.

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
To just stop doing what caused harm is not what is asked of by G_d, it takes
real action to try to make right the wrong. Thus the story of what happened
in this newsgroup with Mike's Libels of me. His stopping now is not
Redemption, it is a start. He must take action in life now to undo to
whatever extent he is able that damage done. And if someone entered that
fight on the side of a libeler like Mike, and cannot see that was not right,
then they too must undo what they did to have redemption.

Not to be concerned about what others are doing - or not doing - but to be
certain that my actions are reflecting Torah at all times. This is not
possible if I am constantly judging and measuring others' actions.

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
It takes real action not just words to get Redemption as Rebbees of great
scholorly knowledge of the subject have taught for 100s of Generations if
not thousands.

Redemption is first and foremost - a state of Being. No longer enslaved in
Egypt - no longer living in the fleshpots of exile - but within the heart of
Hashem. Free, alive and thriving - being guided by Hashgacha - Providence -
and soon, soon, soon - Mashiach. Redemption is renewal of the soul and
spirit, re-affirming absolute trust and faith in the goodness and wisdom of
the Creator and His perfect plan for all of His Children. Redemption is
cutting the ties that bind us to death.

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
They also teach that what one dishes out comes back 1000 fold to that
person. That they must ask forgiveness or they will get back far worse than
they did to the others. Tilly was taught that one. She Joined in on one
attack on my Mother and Father, not here to defend themselves and took great
offense when I said one thing about her beloved Grandmother. She is still
not redeemed. In fact the old laws say that for her and Mikes False
Unsupported Witness the punishment would be stoning and if they survived
that banishment from all the Civilized Jewish Tribes for all time. That was
the way toward Redemption of the heart in those days. Sometimes I wish that
is when I lived. I would have the right to Mike's head on a stake outside
my tent.

As individuals we are all seeking to alleviate suffering. What we are
missing more times than not, is that suffering is dealt to those that are
slow in learning. Those that do not heed to their past history are apt to
repeat it. Suffering serves as an impetus for spiritual growth. That is all.
Understanding this is a huge step in moving forward towards Redemption.
Helping others to see this helps us all. Nobody wants to suffer endlessly,
and surely what you suffer as my brother, I suffer with you. So it is with
the Jewish people. We are all responsible for each other - for good and for
the *bad* times. Let us just remember that it was due to baseless hatred
that BOTH of our Temples were destroyed. We are in Times which require us to
transcend ego-based differences and find common threads which link our
hearts together in love. Letting go of differences - MACHLOKET - might be
one of the hardest things for us to do. But this is a MUST in order to keep
the command of Love Thy Neighbor - Ve-Ahavta Le-Re-cha Kamocha. One
commandment which in effect embodies the other 612. One commandment which
ASSUREDLY will hasten the Redemption for us all, Matt.


Blessings,
Yechidah

[ChabadRainbow]

Matt, I don't think you understand how dangerous a situation we are in as a
community. That any argument can set us over the edge to an unfathomable
abyss of terror. Who is in control of you - Matt - your soul or your evil
inclination? Hopefully your soul - and you will let this go.

This is not to take away any wrong-doing done to you, or wrong you have done
to another, but to say - Lashon Hara only destroys they who bear it and they
that hear it.

In regard to slander, tale bearing, gossip or arguments - spiritually - this
is a contamination which infects quickly like a virus. As a Jew I must run
from Lashon Hara like from fire and so please excuse me if I do not get
involved in this further.


Blessings,
Yechidah

Post by ChabadRainbow

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman

Redemption must be taken very seriously Giora - of course we are
commanded to serve Hashem with Joy - so - all is right and balanced
in the world.
Have a good week,
Yechidah

Very true but that leave a question in the hearts of many injured by
another's actions. What constitutes a genuine sign of redemption?

Personal redemption of a Jew and Redemption of the Jewish people are
one of the same. How can one Jew be redeemed without effecting the
entire community? It goes without saying that when we get closer to
our own essence, soul, clearing away spiritual debris of the Yetzer
and doing Teshuva fully and whole-heartedly - footsteps of Mashiach
can't be far away. Love Thy Neighbor becomes each Jew's goal.

So is the defense of oneself and true neighbors. It was the same source
that sent David to slay Golieth.

Post by ChabadRainbow
Does it

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
not require of those working or seeking such to ask for such. Is
that not the spirit of the Day of Yom Kippur? One must reflect
with honesty and

see

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
the wrongs they committed then and only then can there be
*Redemption*.

Redemption is 24/7-365. Every moment is potential for Redemption. It
is a matter of surrendering to Hashem's will and doing not what *I*
think is right - but what Hashem deems as right.

That is what the reflection part is about. And redemption does require
under the commandments such action.

Post by ChabadRainbow

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
To just stop doing what caused harm is not what is asked of by G_d,
it

takes

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
real action to try to make right the wrong. Thus the story of what

happened

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
in this newsgroup with Mike's Libels of me. His stopping now is not
Redemption, it is a start. He must take action in life now to undo
to whatever extent he is able that damage done. And if someone
entered that fight on the side of a libeler like Mike, and cannot
see that was not

right,

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
then they too must undo what they did to have redemption.

Not to be concerned about what others are doing - or not doing - but
to be certain that my actions are reflecting Torah at all times. This
is not possible if I am constantly judging and measuring others'
actions.

The Torah also speaks to Justice and of Judgmetn and does also make us the
keeper of our own brothers.

Post by ChabadRainbow

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
It takes real action not just words to get Redemption as Rebbees of
great scholorly knowledge of the subject have taught for 100s of
Generations if not thousands.

Redemption is first and foremost - a state of Being. No longer
enslaved in Egypt - no longer living in the fleshpots of exile - but
within the heart of Hashem. Free, alive and thriving - being guided
by Hashgacha - Providence - and soon, soon, soon - Mashiach.
Redemption is renewal of the soul and spirit, re-affirming absolute
trust and faith in the goodness and wisdom of the Creator and His
perfect plan for all of His Children. Redemption is cutting the ties
that bind us to death.

Yet Kabbalah and Torah addrees in the afermative that for goodness needed
needs the confrontation of evil in those that perpetrate such. They both
clearly state the laws, and the punishments for breaking those laws.

False

witness under those very scrolls calls for stoning unto death. So adress
that part as well. Without such you only will preach to the cior, not the
ones of need of discussion of the words of G_d.

Post by ChabadRainbow

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
They also teach that what one dishes out comes back 1000 fold to that
person. That they must ask forgiveness or they will get back far
worse

than

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
they did to the others. Tilly was taught that one. She Joined in
on one attack on my Mother and Father, not here to defend themselves
and took

great

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
offense when I said one thing about her beloved Grandmother. She is
still not redeemed. In fact the old laws say that for her and
Mikes False Unsupported Witness the punishment would be stoning and
if they survived that banishment from all the Civilized Jewish
Tribes for all time. That

was

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
the way toward Redemption of the heart in those days. Sometimes I
wish

that

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman
is when I lived. I would have the right to Mike's head on a stake
outside my tent.

As individuals we are all seeking to alleviate suffering. What we are
missing more times than not, is that suffering is dealt to those that
are slow in learning. Those that do not heed to their past history
are apt to repeat it. Suffering serves as an impetus for spiritual
growth. That is all. Understanding this is a huge step in moving
forward towards Redemption. Helping others to see this helps us all.
Nobody wants to suffer endlessly, and surely what you suffer as my
brother, I suffer with you. So it is with the Jewish people. We are
all responsible for each other - for good and for the *bad* times.
Let us just remember that it was due to baseless hatred that BOTH of
our Temples were destroyed. We are in Times which require us to
transcend ego-based differences and find common threads which link
our hearts together in love. Letting go of differences - MACHLOKET -
might be one of the hardest things for us to do. But this is a MUST
in order to keep the command of Love Thy Neighbor - Ve-Ahavta
Le-Re-cha Kamocha. One commandment which in effect embodies the other
612. One commandment which ASSUREDLY will hasten the Redemption for
us all, Matt.

Love thy neighbor is a commandment but so is dispatch unto death internal
thy enemies. Both are commandments from the same sources. Remember the
Philastines were neighbors, but G_d did call on David to slay Golieth and
then the Armies of Israel under King Sol's sons to dispatch to death all
Philistean Army all of them also neighbors.
It is like the Christian Mistranslation of some of the 10 commandments

given

to Moses. The oldest scrolls when translated say "Thou Shalt not Commit
Murder" not that "Thou Shalt not Kill". What is the diffence, is in the
Talmud and Kabbalah (two very spiritual sources) it states very disticltly
that your enemy is not a neighbor to be loved but watched carefully and to
be killed before he kills you or an neighbor.
The Kabballah has many spirtitual thought in it. It has much to say about
women as if they are devout are the ones most heard by G_d, that is why

they

are give the free hand in the religous teachings of their children till
reach a certain age when the men teach the boys and the women teach the
girls. Ever see the way Hassidem teach a young boy the sweetness of the
name Hashem, they say and take the boys finger and dip in honey and put it
in his mouth so he will remember the sweetness of that name. That is a
commandment found in the Talmud. It is also referenced in Kaballah.
That is how they learn the real sweetness of Hashem. Not by turning the
other cheek, but proud in their strength derived from their belief. But
attacked and the entire community will gather and confront with whaterver
needed their attackers. Yet at the same time they are the closest to what
you are talking about.
You see you have taken great care to study the words, but have you deleved
into the other scrolls other than Torah to see the real meanings and

intents

of those words? Have you sat in hours of discussion with a Rebbee as I

have

done in my past and beging to want to seek that again? Have you discussed
the descrepencies you find in days on end of studies of the Talmud and
Kaballah as well as the Torah? One cannot say for certain which two
commandments that do have conflictions in them should be followed by

another

person. One can call out for the protection of the Jewish people when
under attack and expect to be given that. One can defend themselves when
attacked, that is in the commandments. The commandments are clear that

till

I am attacked or the danger is such (like the '67 war) Jews must not be

the

intial agressor.
I stand by that and did not attack Mike till he attacked me. I did not
attack the person from Amsterdam till he attacked me. I did not attack
Tilly till she attacked me. That makes her an agressor, makes Mike the
Agressor. I am by the commandments allowed to defend myself when

attacked.

To say not so, is to ignore a large portion of the commandments of Hashem,
to us.
It eventually boils down to what type of defense a person will use. In
Mikes case I am taking him to court. That falls under Rabinical Laws that
say we must in additon to the other commandments obey and use the laws as
written in any nation we enter or settle down in. If not we could not

even

pledge algence to the Flag in this country and when I was going to

elementry

school that was required by law (1950s US history had its own querks). I
could not use the currency of the USA by the commandments if not for that
Rabbinical law. Look at the eye in the peramid on the back of a One

Dollar

Bill as one example of why it is defined as a gaven imagae, idolitry if

you

must. It is Rabinical commandments to the Jewish people we must accept

the

US currency as that is the nations law. The word G_d spelled out with the
"O" on paper money, a temporary medium is also against Hashem and the
commandments. That is why on anything temporary I must try to do it with
the "O" missing and replaced by any other character. I asked a Rebee and

2

rabbies permision to not use the dash on my web site as it caused to much
contriversy when I did do it. I had to explain the intent of the site and
since it was strictly meant to help people of any faith they gave me
permission if you will to spell it out exactly with all the letters there.
Just to avoid contriversy and hurt others sensibilites. The Rebee did
quesiton the site till I also showed him the insprirational thoughts

section

printed out (that version spelled it with the Underscore still). When he
saw that section he came to understand the real nature of my request and
also voiced that since so many people of good hearts that may be offended

if

Jediac Laws were applied to that one thing that he too had to agree with

the

request.
As this should show you, I take the Commandments seriously. The latest
attack is a new person in my life that is full of love of life and people.
She does not judge people by their color, sex, sexual orientation,

religous

beliefs, but only on their actions. So with cruelty to her they attack

her

as well now. Never reading anything from her. That sir I will hold them
enemies for. I will personally do them no physical harm, but I will say
that his world will be a much better place if both of them suddenly died.
Same as I would say that millions would have been better off had Hitler

been

still born.

Post by ChabadRainbow
Blessings,
Yechidah

Same.
--
MattA
Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/
I am asking for a vote on the new site name dedicated to the Libel
Posts of Mike Shultz.
1) The Big Lies - posts by M. Shultz -
http://www.(webhost).com/shutlzeeeee/
2) Is this another troll?. - http://www.(webhost).com/mike_the_troll/
3) Mike the libeling SOB - - http://www.(webhost).com/mike_s_libeler/
4) Post of a libeler --- -
http://www.(webhost).com/mikeeee_boy_libeler/
5) Samples of libels on Usenet ---
http://www.(webhost).com/posts_of_mike_ds_shutlz/
Or submit a new entry.
Just use the mail links below to vote

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by ChabadRainbow
Redemption is 24/7-365. Every moment is potential for Redemption. It
is a matter of surrendering to Hashem's will and doing not what *I*
think is right - but what Hashem deems as right.

That is what the reflection part is about. And redemption does require
under the commandments such action.

True. What you left over is the refraction part. How do you fit it in the
redemption?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by ChabadRainbow
Redemption is 24/7-365. Every moment is potential for Redemption. It
is a matter of surrendering to Hashem's will and doing not what *I*
think is right - but what Hashem deems as right.

That is what the reflection part is about. And redemption does
require under the commandments such action.

True. What you left over is the refraction part. How do you fit it
in the redemption?

I apply the commandments in the manor of Solomon and David.
That means I must reflect on my actions and take corrective act to have
redemption. It does not though require I lay down prostrate before my
enemies.

I understand the reflection part, more or less. What I don't understand is
the refraction part and it looks that you are not familiar with it either.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman]

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by ChabadRainbow
Redemption is 24/7-365. Every moment is potential for Redemption.
It is a matter of surrendering to Hashem's will and doing not
what *I* think is right - but what Hashem deems as right.

That is what the reflection part is about. And redemption does
require under the commandments such action.

True. What you left over is the refraction part. How do you fit it
in the redemption?

I apply the commandments in the manor of Solomon and David.
That means I must reflect on my actions and take corrective act to
have redemption. It does not though require I lay down prostrate
before my enemies.

I understand the reflection part, more or less. What I don't
understand is the refraction part and it looks that you are not
familiar with it either.

Since none of your quoted sections show the usage of that word by me and I
looked at my posts earlier in this thread and did not see it used by me,
please supply such in the context used by me. Then I may be able to explain
it, Could if it exists, been just a heavy hand on my sometimes working -
sometimes not working spell check that is supposed to start up when I hit
send. Sometimes I just am too heavy on the button and sever words get
changed without selecting the correct suggestion. But again till you
provide the paragraph at least where you think I used such word, I cannot
answer your question. Could it be that it was not used by me but just by
you in which case it is for you to explain what you mean, not me.

No attack needed, just since I cannot find the usage of that word in my sent
folder or the thread in the file that contains the downloaded messages
(including mine) by me, I just have to ask for it. Had I seen it in one of
the two folders I would be more than willing to try to explain what I was
meaning to say.

Best to you and your Family.

--
MattA
mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

I am asking for a vote on the new site name dedicated to the Libel
Posts of Mike Shultz.


Suggestions to date that were emailed to me are:

1) The Big Lies - posts by M. Shultz -
http://www.(webhost).com/shutlzeeeee/

2) Is this another troll?. - http://www.(webhost).com/mike_the_troll/

3) Mike the libeling SOB - - http://www.(webhost).com/mike_s_libeler/

4) Post of a libeler --- -
http://www.(webhost).com/mikeeee_boy_libeler/

5) Samples of libels on Usenet ---
http://www.(webhost).com/posts_of_mike_ds_shutlz/


Or submit a new entry.

Just use the mail links below to vote

mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_1

mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_2

Mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_3

mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_4

Mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_5

Mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=New_Name_4_Mike_Site

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by Giora Drachsler

That is what the reflection part is about. And redemption does
require under the commandments such action.

True. What you left over is the refraction part. How do you fit it
in the redemption?

I apply the commandments in the manor of Solomon and David.
That means I must reflect on my actions and take corrective act to
have redemption. It does not though require I lay down prostrate
before my enemies.

I understand the reflection part, more or less. What I don't
understand is the refraction part and it looks that you are not
familiar with it either.

Since none of your quoted sections show the usage of that word by me and I
looked at my posts earlier in this thread and did not see it used by me,
please supply such in the context used by me. Then I may be able to explain
it, Could if it exists, been just a heavy hand on my sometimes working -
sometimes not working spell check that is supposed to start up when I hit
send. Sometimes I just am too heavy on the button and sever words get
changed without selecting the correct suggestion. But again till you
provide the paragraph at least where you think I used such word, I cannot
answer your question. Could it be that it was not used by me but just by
you in which case it is for you to explain what you mean, not me.
No attack needed, just since I cannot find the usage of that word in my sent
folder or the thread in the file that contains the downloaded messages
(including mine) by me, I just have to ask for it. Had I seen it in one of
the two folders I would be more than willing to try to explain what I was
meaning to say.
Best to you and your Family.
--
MattA

The human refraction is it's ability to bend when passing from one spiritual
state to another. It might be connected with salvation, but it might not.
What do you think about?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Giora Drachsler
The human refraction is it's ability to bend when passing from one
spiritual state to another. It might be connected with salvation,
but it might not. What do you think about?

That is an very good concept. However not all postive changes from one
Spiritual State to another requires bending of will. Once acceptance of

G_d

is there, it does not require one to bend to try to follow his will or his
commandments. The way to salvation is the adherence to the Commandments.
They however, unfortunately today fall under the interpretation of

Mankind,

not an announted one such as he who entered the home of the Shepard boy,
David and stated he would be the next king, and announted him with the oil
that sealed that covenent with the House of David and ended the rule of

the

House Of Sol who tried to make the rule of Israel a Dynasty to be given

from

him, not G_d to his eldest son.
The killing of Golieth the warrior champion of the Philisteans by David
using a simple sling and a stone was also commanded by G_d and David the
smallest with the Army, the consoler of Sol, used the weapon used by a
simple shepard to protect the flocks from wild beasts, and slayed a giant
with all his armor on with one stone.
David did not have to bend to rise upward in spirt then. He needed to do

so

only when he broke the commandments about the sanctity of marrage.
G_d does not command that we not fight our enemies. In fact there are

many

commandments that tell us to do the opposite.

You are a man of culture, no doubt, still, I don't understand the connection
between, David, Goliath and human refraction. You tried to explain it, but
I lost you.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman]

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by Giora Drachsler
The human refraction is it's ability to bend when passing from one
spiritual state to another. It might be connected with salvation,
but it might not. What do you think about?

That is an very good concept. However not all postive changes from
one Spiritual State to another requires bending of will. Once
acceptance of

G_d

is there, it does not require one to bend to try to follow his will
or his commandments. The way to salvation is the adherence to the
Commandments. They however, unfortunately today fall under the
interpretation of

Mankind,

not an anointed one such as he who entered the home of the Shepard
boy, David and stated he would be the next king, and anointed him
with the oil that sealed that covenant with the House of David and
ended the rule of

the

House Of Sol who tried to make the rule of Israel a Dynasty to be given

from

him, not G_d to his eldest son.
The killing of Goliath the warrior champion of the Philistines by
David using a simple sling and a stone was also commanded by G_d and
David the smallest with the Army, the consoler of Sol, used the
weapon used by a simple Shepard to protect the flocks from wild
beasts, and slayed a giant with all his armor on with one stone.
David did not have to bend to rise upward in spirt then. He needed to do

so

only when he broke the commandments about the sanctity of marriage.
G_d does not command that we not fight our enemies. In fact there are

many

commandments that tell us to do the opposite.

You are a man of culture, no doubt, still, I don't understand the
connection between, David, Goliath and human refraction. You tried
to explain it, but I lost you.

The Israelites were disinhearted by the victories of the Philistine Army.
Sol, the King of Israel, had broken the commandments and was brought for it
to the point of insanity.

Goliath was the largest and strongest and most feared soldier of the
Philistine Invaders into the lands of Israel. David a simple boy, barely
old enough in the eyes of the religion to be called a man, was the only one
that instead of being willing to bend before the enemies, (refraction),
stood and said he would answer the challenge of the Philistine King's army
to send down the *strongest* and *best* soldier of Israel to do combat to
the death against Goliath. Winner would win the war. David a simple
Shepard had already been anointed to be the next King. He went down to the
valley to fight the enemy with no *man* there to support him. He was
laughed at and scorned by those that had challenged the Jews. Goliath wore
heavy Armor that no Israeli sword or spear could ever penetrate, and a
helmet that was also to well made.

David did not just allow the enemy attack, he did not bend or split,
refract. He slew Goliath against all human capabilities. No refraction or
bending before the might of Goliath or the Philistine King.

That is what David and the slaying Goliath has to do with refraction, is
that none was involved. In other things David did there is such. He was
the only person able to give peace to the mind and sole of Sol. The very
same Sol that tried to have David murdered forcing David to flee for a time.
David showed compassion for his neighbor as well but delivered unto Death
the enemies of his neighbors.


--
MattA
mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman

Post by Giora Drachsler
You are a man of culture, no doubt, still, I don't understand the
connection between, David, Goliath and human refraction. You tried
to explain it, but I lost you.

The Israelites were disinhearted by the victories of the Philistine Army.
Sol, the King of Israel, had broken the commandments and was brought for it
to the point of insanity.
Goliath was the largest and strongest and most feared soldier of the
Philistine Invaders into the lands of Israel. David a simple boy, barely
old enough in the eyes of the religion to be called a man, was the only one
that instead of being willing to bend before the enemies, (refraction),
stood and said he would answer the challenge of the Philistine King's army
to send down the *strongest* and *best* soldier of Israel to do combat to
the death against Goliath. Winner would win the war. David a simple
Shepard had already been anointed to be the next King. He went down to the
valley to fight the enemy with no *man* there to support him. He was
laughed at and scorned by those that had challenged the Jews. Goliath wore
heavy Armor that no Israeli sword or spear could ever penetrate, and a
helmet that was also to well made.
David did not just allow the enemy attack, he did not bend or split,
refract. He slew Goliath against all human capabilities. No refraction or
bending before the might of Goliath or the Philistine King.
That is what David and the slaying Goliath has to do with refraction, is
that none was involved. In other things David did there is such. He was
the only person able to give peace to the mind and sole of Sol. The very
same Sol that tried to have David murdered forcing David to flee for a time.
David showed compassion for his neighbor as well but delivered unto Death
the enemies of his neighbors.
--
MattA

Sorry, but you are going round around an empty hole. You are probably well
loaded
with scriptures, but light in reasoning. I understood nothing from your
erudite dissertation.
In Hebrew we call it "moreah".
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Tilly]

That means I must reflect on my actions and take corrective act to
have redemption. It does not though require I lay down prostrate
before my enemies.

ROTFL.......Matt lays down his prostrate........LOL



Tilly
***@hotmail.com

[Nossy]

Orthodox Jewish Zionist wackos forget the punishment for violating the
decree of Exile after the destruction of the Temple in Kesuboth 111:
Ani matir es besarchem ke-tsviyos ve-ayalos ha-sadeh. I will make your
flesh vulnerable like the deer and gazelle of the field.


On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:10:41 -0400, "ChabadRainbow"

These are the 3 Weeks - in which we are in mourning for our beloved temples
which were destroyed because of baseless hatred amongst us.
He/She that does not remember is doomed to witness history repeat itself.
Each time the suffering increases. More terror, more bloodshed.
It must stop.

Post by Tilly

That means I must reflect on my actions and take corrective act to
have redemption. It does not though require I lay down prostrate
before my enemies.

ROTFL.......Matt lays down his prostrate........LOL
Tilly

[Giora Drachsler]

Are the deer and the gazelle Kosher? If not, what it has to do with their
flesh?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

Post by Nossy
Orthodox Jewish Zionist wackos forget the punishment for violating the
Ani matir es besarchem ke-tsviyos ve-ayalos ha-sadeh. I will make your
flesh vulnerable like the deer and gazelle of the field.
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:10:41 -0400, "ChabadRainbow"

These are the 3 Weeks - in which we are in mourning for our beloved temples
which were destroyed because of baseless hatred amongst us.
He/She that does not remember is doomed to witness history repeat itself.
Each time the suffering increases. More terror, more bloodshed.
It must stop.

Post by Tilly

That means I must reflect on my actions and take corrective act to
have redemption. It does not though require I lay down prostrate
before my enemies.

ROTFL.......Matt lays down his prostrate........LOL
Tilly

[Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman]

Post by Tilly

That means I must reflect on my actions and take corrective act to
have redemption. It does not though require I lay down prostrate
before my enemies.

ROTFL.......Matt lays down his prostrate........LOL
Tilly

Showing off your low IQ again Whore?
--
MattA
mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

I am asking for a vote on the new site name dedicated to the Libel
Posts of Mike Shultz.


Suggestions to date that were emailed to me are:

1) The Big Lies - posts by M. Shultz -
http://www.(webhost).com/shutlzeeeee/

2) Is this another troll?. - http://www.(webhost).com/mike_the_troll/

3) Mike the libeling SOB - - http://www.(webhost).com/mike_s_libeler/

4) Post of a libeler --- -
http://www.(webhost).com/mikeeee_boy_libeler/

5) Samples of libels on Usenet ---
http://www.(webhost).com/posts_of_mike_ds_shutlz/


Or submit a new entry.

Just use the mail links below to vote

mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_1

mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_2

Mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_3

mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_4

Mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=vote4_5

Mailto:***@comcast.net?subject=New_Name_4_Mike_Site

[ChabadRainbow]

You like the word *refraction*. In terms of a prism refracting light - a Jew
is the same. We are synthesizers for the Light. Our neshama receives the
light as 10 streams of consciousness, 10 streams of holiness, 10 streams of
compassion. Internalizing these spheres of light within our souls, we
integrate them within our thoughts, speech and actions - lifting them once
more to the heavens in a glorified refraction. Heaven-Earth-Heaven. The
bestowal of Light is complete. Shalem.

Blessings,
Yechidah

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman

Post by Tilly

That means I must reflect on my actions and take corrective act to
have redemption. It does not though require I lay down prostrate
before my enemies.

ROTFL.......Matt lays down his prostrate........LOL
Tilly

Showing off your low IQ again Whore?
--
MattA

Now that's not nice to say. She might ask you if you have
a low voice too, to match your IQ. But, seriously, here is an
other example of human refraction, or inner bending.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by ChabadRainbow
You like the word *refraction*. In terms of a prism refracting light - a Jew
is the same. We are synthesizers for the Light. Our neshama receives the
light as 10 streams of consciousness, 10 streams of holiness, 10 streams of
compassion. Internalizing these spheres of light within our souls, we
integrate them within our thoughts, speech and actions - lifting them once
more to the heavens in a glorified refraction. Heaven-Earth-Heaven. The
bestowal of Light is complete. Shalem.
Blessings,
Yechidah

That was the longest description I ever heard, not that I understood it.
A friend of mine, a Rabbi, told me: give me your problem, I'll find
a "pasuk" for it. It looks that you are good in that too, in your case
you found it without an apparent problem.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

What part of refraction don't you understand? If you have a Neshama this
should be elementary.
Try reading a little at http://www.kabbalah.info for information about
Light, Soul, refraction, reflection, contraction, receiving and bestowal.
Blessings,
Yechidah

Probably I don't have a Neshama, because I still can't understand. Don't
you have a lighter explanation? For novices?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Yechidah]

You have a Neshama. If you're a Jew - you have one. It's part of your soul's
structure.

It could also be that you are simply not ready to internalize this
information - i.e. your psyche is not ready. Defenses, ego, denial and other
matters such as conditioning and pre-conceived notions, have a way of
cropping up - placing blocks for light (knowledge) to pass through.

At any rate, have a look at the website I posted here. The clarifications
are simple, straightforward and easily digestable.

Here, I will post it again - http://www.kabbalah.info

Blessings,
Yechidha

Post by Giora Drachsler

What part of refraction don't you understand? If you have a Neshama this
should be elementary.
Try reading a little at http://www.kabbalah.info for information about
Light, Soul, refraction, reflection, contraction, receiving and bestowal.
Blessings,
Yechidah

Probably I don't have a Neshama, because I still can't understand. Don't
you have a lighter explanation? For novices?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Yechidah

Post by Giora Drachsler

What part of refraction don't you understand? If you have a Neshama this
should be elementary.
Try reading a little at http://www.kabbalah.info for information about
Light, Soul, refraction, reflection, contraction, receiving and bestowal.
Blessings,
Yechidah

Probably I don't have a Neshama, because I still can't understand.

Don't

Post by Yechidah

Post by Giora Drachsler
you have a lighter explanation? For novices?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

You have a Neshama. If you're a Jew - you have one. It's part of your soul's
structure.
It could also be that you are simply not ready to internalize this
information - i.e. your psyche is not ready. Defenses, ego, denial and other
matters such as conditioning and pre-conceived notions, have a way of
cropping up - placing blocks for light (knowledge) to pass through.
At any rate, have a look at the website I posted here. The clarifications
are simple, straightforward and easily digestable.
Here, I will post it again - http://www.kabbalah.info
Blessings,
Yechidha

You can't be serious if you turn me to mysticism, just because you can't
find a reasonable answer.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Yechidah]

Giora, far be it from me to turn you any which way.
Wishing you well.

Have a Shabbat Shalom,
Yechidah

Post by Yechidah

Post by Giora Drachsler

What part of refraction don't you understand? If you have a Neshama

this

Post by Yechidah

Post by Giora Drachsler

should be elementary.
Try reading a little at http://www.kabbalah.info for information about
Light, Soul, refraction, reflection, contraction, receiving and

bestowal.

Post by Yechidah

Post by Giora Drachsler

Blessings,
Yechidah

Probably I don't have a Neshama, because I still can't understand.

Don't

Post by Yechidah

Post by Giora Drachsler
you have a lighter explanation? For novices?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

You have a Neshama. If you're a Jew - you have one. It's part of your

soul's

Post by Yechidah
structure.
It could also be that you are simply not ready to internalize this
information - i.e. your psyche is not ready. Defenses, ego, denial and

other

Post by Yechidah
matters such as conditioning and pre-conceived notions, have a way of
cropping up - placing blocks for light (knowledge) to pass through.
At any rate, have a look at the website I posted here. The

clarifications

Post by Yechidah
are simple, straightforward and easily digestable.
Here, I will post it again - http://www.kabbalah.info
Blessings,
Yechidha

You can't be serious if you turn me to mysticism, just because you can't
find a reasonable answer.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Tilly

That means I must reflect on my actions and take corrective act to
have redemption. It does not though require I lay down prostrate
before my enemies.

ROTFL.......Matt lays down his prostrate........LOL
Tilly

It's connected with his refraction while taking corrective
measures to have redemption or salvation. Certainly it
doesn't require prostrating, although I heard from more
than one source that it might help.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Giora Drachsler
It's connected with his refraction while taking corrective
measures to have redemption or salvation. Certainly it
doesn't require prostrating, although I heard from more
than one source that it might help.

Giora,
Thank you for your correct answer to what I said. I am trying hard not to
respond to Tilly for now at all. Peace offer made to Mike may better work
that way since he decided to accept it.
Hopefully Tilly will also then stop the anger in her person.
--
MattA

You see, maybe there is still hope for me. Still, why do you
thing I need salvation?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

These are the 3 Weeks - in which we are in mourning for our beloved

temples

which were destroyed because of baseless hatred amongst us.
He/She that does not remember is doomed to witness history repeat itself.
Each time the suffering increases. More terror, more bloodshed.
It must stop.

I back you up on this. Now I have a delicate question to you: who do you
think hates more - the Haredi or the Secular? BTW, what's your oppinion
on the story, I guess of Hassidic origin, where two wagons try to pass on a
narrow bridge. Who do you think should pull back first?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Susan Cohen]

These are the 3 Weeks - in which we are in mourning for our beloved

temples

which were destroyed because of baseless hatred amongst us.
He/She that does not remember is doomed to witness history repeat itself.
Each time the suffering increases. More terror, more bloodshed.
It must stop.

Amen!

I back you up on this. Now I have a delicate question to you: who do you
think hates more - the Haredi or the Secular? BTW, what's your oppinion
on the story, I guess of Hassidic origin, where two wagons try to pass on a
narrow bridge. Who do you think should pull back first?

Are the wagons the same size? Are they driven by the same type of animals?
Whichever can back up more easily should do so.

Susan

[Giora Drachsler]

[ snipped ]
:>> I back you up on this. Now I have a delicate question to you: who do

you

:>> think hates more - the Haredi or the Secular? BTW, what's your

oppinion

:>> on the story, I guess of Hassidic origin, where two wagons try to pass

on

:>a
:>> narrow bridge. Who do you think should pull back first?
Not a Chassidic story. It actually a case in the Gemmorrah.
Similar cases with ships on narrow rivers.
:>Are the wagons the same size? Are they driven by the same type of

animals?

:>Whichever can back up more easily should do so.
There are various case points, but if all is equal the one closest to home
backs up.

One of the wagon is well packed, the other, lightly packed. This puzzle
has been used by Chasidim and twisted to this analogy: the packed one
is a Yeshiva Boocher, well packed with Scriptures, the other, a less
"learned"
one. And here is our puzzle, once again: if a Yeshiva boocher and a
"common" one, try to pass a narrow bridge, who should go back and
free the way?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Binyamin Dissen]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:27:19 +0300 "Giora Drachsler" <***@cc.huji.ac.il>
wrote:

:>"Binyamin Dissen" <***@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:***@4ax.com...

:>> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 02:36:21 -0400 "Susan Cohen" <***@his.com> wrote:

:>> :>> I back you up on this. Now I have a delicate question to you: who do
:>you
:>> :>> think hates more - the Haredi or the Secular? BTW, what's your
:>oppinion
:>> :>> on the story, I guess of Hassidic origin, where two wagons try to pass
:>on
:>> :>a
:>> :>> narrow bridge. Who do you think should pull back first?

:>> Not a Chassidic story. It actually a case in the Gemmorrah.

:>> Similar cases with ships on narrow rivers.
:>>
:>> :>Are the wagons the same size? Are they driven by the same type of
:>animals?
:>> :>Whichever can back up more easily should do so.

:>> There are various case points, but if all is equal the one closest to home
:>> backs up.

:>One of the wagon is well packed, the other, lightly packed.

The lightly packed yields.

:> This puzzle
:>has been used by Chasidim and twisted to this analogy: the packed one
:>is a Yeshiva Boocher, well packed with Scriptures, the other, a less
:>"learned"
:>one. And here is our puzzle, once again: if a Yeshiva boocher and a
:>"common" one, try to pass a narrow bridge, who should go back and
:>free the way?

Insufficient information.

--
Binyamin Dissen <***@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

[ChabadRainbow]

One bridge? Narrow? No fear. We are commanded to be of support to each
other. So it is.

The elders, infirmed, children and women of all sects of our people will be
assisted by the stronger ones. Those that fear must be calmed and supported
by those that fear not - those that *know*, those that a strong of spirit.
Those that have no horse or wagon must be lifted up to share with others.

What is the question? What is the concern?

Blessings,
Yechidah

These are the 3 Weeks - in which we are in mourning for our beloved

temples

which were destroyed because of baseless hatred amongst us.
He/She that does not remember is doomed to witness history repeat

itself.

Each time the suffering increases. More terror, more bloodshed.
It must stop.

Amen!

I back you up on this. Now I have a delicate question to you: who do you
think hates more - the Haredi or the Secular? BTW, what's your oppinion
on the story, I guess of Hassidic origin, where two wagons try to pass

on

a

narrow bridge. Who do you think should pull back first?

Are the wagons the same size? Are they driven by the same type of animals?
Whichever can back up more easily should do so.
Susan

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by ChabadRainbow
One bridge? Narrow? No fear. We are commanded to be of support to each
other. So it is.
The elders, infirmed, children and women of all sects of our people will be
assisted by the stronger ones. Those that fear must be calmed and supported
by those that fear not - those that *know*, those that a strong of spirit.
Those that have no horse or wagon must be lifted up to share with others.
What is the question? What is the concern?
Blessings,
Yechidah

You are really unique, in the positive sense, but the story is symbolic and
it
tries to solve the age old problem: the learned one and the common one and
here it is not allegorically: "Should the "common" one show respect to the
learned one, or it's the other way around?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[ChabadRainbow]

We are specifically commanded to love, in spite of the inclination perhaps
to do otherwise. We are commanded to rise above the ego and judgment and
love our people as Hashem loves each one of His children tenderly like a
father - secular or religious.

By definition a person who keeps the commandments holy would be the one to
love *more* as Hashem's Law requires us to and we understand the
ramifications of keeping the Mitzvot. Whereas a secular person perhaps would
more readily be quick to judgment, closing their heart - since in their
belief system there is no G-D, no Law - no covenant (spiritual contract)
binding them to altruistic love.


Blessings,
Yechidah

Very well, then tell me who loves more each other, the Charedi or the
secular?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

Giora, I am not involved in hatred. I am not eager to know numbers of

those

that hate, rather my *thing* is to accelerate and increase the love and
unity in amongst our people. Ahavat Yisrael is what counts now.

Positivity.

The *other side* can concentrate its efforts in excluding the negative
aspects of our people.
Blessings,
Yechidah

These are the 3 Weeks - in which we are in mourning for our beloved

temples

which were destroyed because of baseless hatred amongst us.
He/She that does not remember is doomed to witness history repeat

itself.

Each time the suffering increases. More terror, more bloodshed.
It must stop.

I back you up on this. Now I have a delicate question to you: who do

you

think hates more - the Haredi or the Secular? BTW, what's your oppinion
on the story, I guess of Hassidic origin, where two wagons try to pass

on

a

narrow bridge. Who do you think should pull back first?
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by ChabadRainbow
We are specifically commanded to love, in spite of the inclination perhaps
to do otherwise. We are commanded to rise above the ego and judgment and
love our people as Hashem loves each one of His children tenderly like a
father - secular or religious.
By definition a person who keeps the commandments holy would be the one to
love *more* as Hashem's Law requires us to and we understand the
ramifications of keeping the Mitzvot. Whereas a secular person perhaps would
more readily be quick to judgment, closing their heart - since in their
belief system there is no G-D, no Law - no covenant (spiritual contract)
binding them to altruistic love.
Blessings,
Yechidah

You may be right, on the other hand, I heard and seen a Charedi
mother educating her son: "If you won't finish your soup, the Chiloni
will come, put you in a sack and take you away". Now, where are
the above mentioned commandments?

I understand that if she is pious enough, she loves Hashem more
than her children, which is less than the Chiloni does; a secular
mother will never threat her children that way.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Yechidah]

That could be construed as lashon hara. I don't know if it's true, so I will
not respond. If you would like to discuss something which doesn't have a
negative slant on it - please let us - and bring to Light divrei emet.

Blessings,
Yechidah

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by ChabadRainbow
We are specifically commanded to love, in spite of the inclination perhaps
to do otherwise. We are commanded to rise above the ego and judgment and
love our people as Hashem loves each one of His children tenderly like a
father - secular or religious.
By definition a person who keeps the commandments holy would be the one to
love *more* as Hashem's Law requires us to and we understand the
ramifications of keeping the Mitzvot. Whereas a secular person perhaps

would

Post by ChabadRainbow
more readily be quick to judgment, closing their heart - since in their
belief system there is no G-D, no Law - no covenant (spiritual contract)
binding them to altruistic love.
Blessings,
Yechidah

You may be right, on the other hand, I heard and seen a Charedi
mother educating her son: "If you won't finish your soup, the Chiloni
will come, put you in a sack and take you away". Now, where are
the above mentioned commandments?
I understand that if she is pious enough, she loves Hashem more
than her children, which is less than the Chiloni does; a secular
mother will never threat her children that way.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Yechidah

Post by Giora Drachsler

Post by ChabadRainbow
We are specifically commanded to love, in spite of the inclination perhaps
to do otherwise. We are commanded to rise above the ego and judgment and
love our people as Hashem loves each one of His children tenderly like a
father - secular or religious.
By definition a person who keeps the commandments holy would be the one to
love *more* as Hashem's Law requires us to and we understand the
ramifications of keeping the Mitzvot. Whereas a secular person perhaps would
more readily be quick to judgment, closing their heart - since in their
belief system there is no G-D, no Law - no covenant (spiritual contract)
binding them to altruistic love.
Blessings,
Yechidah

You may be right, on the other hand, I heard and seen a Charedi
mother educating her son: "If you won't finish your soup, the Chiloni
will come, put you in a sack and take you away". Now, where are
the above mentioned commandments?
I understand that if she is pious enough, she loves Hashem more
than her children, which is less than the Chiloni does; a secular
mother will never threat her children that way.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

That could be construed as lashon hara. I don't know if it's true, so I will
not respond. If you would like to discuss something which doesn't have a
negative slant on it - please let us - and bring to Light divrei emet.
Blessings,
Yechidah

What's the matter, it's too much for you? There are no negatives in
the Charedi field? You can criticize only the seculars? The above
mentioned education way is most common among the Charedim that
infiltrate, from infant days, the hatred toward other sects, seculars, but
not only. The Gur's hate the Satmars, the Ungars hate the Elyashives,
the Orthodox hates the Conservative and every Charedi hates the secular.

Why so much hatred among the most pious one?

Let me tell you a joke from the Charedi world:

Once, Rabbi Shach visited the Lubavicher in his home in Brooklyn. You
know, the Lubavicher said, I am the Messiahs. How do you know, asked
Shach? Well, God himself came to me in my dream and told me so.
Rabbi Shach looks around, up and down, left to right, then he said:
I can't remember being here.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Post by Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman

Redemption must be taken very seriously Giora - of course we are
commanded to serve Hashem with Joy - so - all is right and balanced
in the world.
Have a good week,
Yechidah

Very true but that leave a question in the hearts of many injured by
another's actions. What constitutes a genuine sign of redemption? Does it
not require of those working or seeking such to ask for such. Is that not
the spirit of the Day of Yom Kippur? One must reflect with honesty and see
the wrongs they committed then and only then can there be *Redemption*.
To just stop doing what caused harm is not what is asked of by G_d, it takes
real action to try to make right the wrong. Thus the story of what happened
in this newsgroup with Mike's Libels of me. His stopping now is not
Redemption, it is a start. He must take action in life now to undo to
whatever extent he is able that damage done. And if someone entered that
fight on the side of a libeler like Mike, and cannot see that was not right,
then they too must undo what they did to have redemption.
It takes real action not just words to get Redemption as Rebbees of great
scholorly knowledge of the subject have taught for 100s of Generations if
not thousands.
They also teach that what one dishes out comes back 1000 fold to that
person. That they must ask forgiveness or they will get back far worse than
they did to the others. Tilly was taught that one. She Joined in on one
attack on my Mother and Father, not here to defend themselves and took great
offense when I said one thing about her beloved Grandmother. She is still
not redeemed. In fact the old laws say that for her and Mikes False
Unsupported Witness the punishment would be stoning and if they survived
that banishment from all the Civilized Jewish Tribes for all time. That was
the way toward Redemption of the heart in those days. Sometimes I wish that
is when I lived. I would have the right to Mike's head on a stake outside
my tent.

It's unbelievable how much some are whipping water!!
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[Giora Drachsler]

Yea. Too bad we don't serve Reasoning with the same Joy. It's at
leas as serious as redemption, whatever you mean by that.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

Redemption must be taken very seriously Giora - of course we are commanded
to serve Hashem with Joy - so - all is right and balanced in the world.
Have a good week,
Yechidah

Post by Tilly

Alon, so very true. It would seem that the drive is to stir up
controversy - no more, no less. Those that aren't assisting their
bretheren in the process of Redemption, are just helping our enemies.
Unfortunately, they are stuck in the mire of spiritual illness - and
it will take nothing short of a miracle to get them out of Egypt at
this point.
Those that are tapped in and connected to Achdut Ha'am - Unification
of our People - and you know who you are - must keep on doing what
we're doing. Let Hashem deal with the insolent and scorners with His
perfect Justice.
Blessings,
Yechidah

Excellent post Chabad.
Tilly

Just don't encourage him too much. He might take it seriously.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel

[JGB]

Post by David Goldman
From the book of Zvi Weinman, "Know What to Respond," published in
Jerusalem in 1998 regarding Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan's statement back
in the year 1900!!<

What happened, one of your Hungarian Khazar taliban mullahs issued
a FATWA against zionists? TSK, tsk, tsk. WEll, this is the 21st century
David'll and kwazy khazar kabbalists are no longer taken seriously
by sane people anymore.

Post by David Goldman
It was the custom of Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan, the author of Chafetz
Chaim, to refrain from public protest, and therefore he apparently
refrained from joining the announcement against the Zionist movement.
Subsequently, however, "when the newspapers were filled with hundreds
of articles about nationalism," Rabbi Kagan departed from his custom
and reacted very vociferously. In an article entitled To Faithful Jews
"I call on you, those who are faithful to Judaism to listen to my
words. You are devoted to the word of G-d, and his commandments and
Torah are more precious to you than anything else. The complete and
perfect Torah that was transmitted to us by our forefathers with all
its warnings in every generation is precious and loved by every
devoted Jew, who is willing to give his life and blood for every one
of its laws. We have received from our forefathers and their
forefathers the principle of self-sacrifice in order to maintain the
Torah and its commandments. We also accept the rule of heaven and the
commandments every day with all our hearts and soul, as is known.
Therefore, my friends, let me ask you about news that we are hearing,
about the loud noise about "Zion, Zion." We hear these words recently
from people who want to base the entire Torah on the single word
"Zion." They want to say that a Zionist is an honorable and respected
Jew EVEN if he is very far from the laws of G-d and his Torah, and
vice versa, that a person who refrains from affiliating with the
Zionist movement, EVEN if he is loyal to G-d and observes his religion
as every faithful Jew, it is not appropriate for him to be called a
Jew!
Woe to us because of such talk. Who instructed them this way? Who told
them to talk this way - to place the entire Torah on a single word?
Even the simplest Jew, who does not know all the writings of the
Talmud and legal codes, knows full well that although living a holy
life in the Holy Land is an important commandment, however it is
forbidden to violate any part of the Torah for this purpose! G-d does
not want Jews living in the Holy Land if they violate even ONE law of
the Torah!
What will our children and any intelligent person think when they see
thousands of Jews devoting themselves to just this ONE idea and yet
forget about the entire Torah, ignoring in this error Torah education
and everything else that is sacred because they simply have one
'commandment' in this religion?"

[Norma]

David,

Still at it, I see. From a favorite poet of mine, "Wake up! It's time to
pray". Norma

Jawohl! Sieg Heil der Zionistiche Fuhrer, Herr Sharon mit den
Kommandanten so wie Mofaz und die aendere verabsheuliche Menschen!!
Izrael Uber Alles!!
Zionismus Macht Frei!!
w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Last update - 18:08 31/07/2003
MKs okay bill preventing Palestinians from getting citizenship
By Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service
The Knesset plenum approved Thursday the second and third readings of
a bill to prevent Palestinians who marry Israeli citizens from
receiving citizenship or permanent residency status.
The bill, which has been denounced by its opponents as 'racist' and
'inhumane,' passed by a majority of 53 votes to 25, with one
abstention.
The vote on the amendment to a clause in the citizenship law relating
to family unification was preceded by efforts by the opposition to
stall the ballot.
Labor, Meretz and Arab parties asked that the vote be a vote of no
confidence in the government, which would delay the ballot. But Acting
Prime Minister Silvan Shalom rejected this request, saying that the
vote would be viewed by the government as a vote of confidence, and
therefore could go ahead immediately.
MK Avraham Burg (Labor) said that according to Knesset regulations,
the prime minister must announce in person that he views the vote as a
vote of confidence in the government, and therefore such a move could
not take place without approval from the absent Ariel Sharon.
But Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin then received Sharon's approval in a
telephone conversation, making it possible for the ballot to go ahead.
Ahead of the vote, Army Radio reported that at least three Shinui
Knesset members who opposed the bill were likely to keep to coalition
expectations and abstain from the vote, rather than voting against the
bill.
On Wednesday night, Arab MK Ahmed Tibi (Hadash) attacked Interior
Minister Avraham Poraz (Shinui) for supporting the bill, Army Radio
reported.
"How can you call yourself a liberal?" Tibi asked.
Poraz has said he wasn't "thrilled" with the bill and wished it
weren't necessary, but would abide by it if it became law.
The Knesset Interior and Environment Committee voted Wednesday night
for the second time that day to approve the bill. Knesset Speaker
Rivlin decided Wednesday evening to agree to Meretz MK Roman
Bronfman's request to conduct a re-vote in the committee, which
earlier approved the bill 8-0 in the absence of bill opponents.
The MKs who opposed the bill boycotted the vote to protest what they
said was insufficient time to explain the reasons for their
reservations.
Bill supporters noted that Palestinians who received Israeli
citizenship by marriage were playing a growing role in terror attacks,
a phenomenon that the director the Shin Bet security service Avi
Dichter described in a closed session Tuesday.
Most of those who will be affected by the amendment are Israeli Arabs
who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza, who will now be
unable to live together in Israel.
The committee had been scheduled to vote on the matter on Tuesday, but
the vote on an amended version of the bill was postponed following a
stormy debate.
The committee's legal adviser had recommended amending the bill,
saying the original version constituted an excessive infringement of
civil rights.
According to the new version, the interior minister may grant
citizenship or a six-month residency permit in special cases. The
previous version allowed the minister to grant citizenship or a
three-month residency permit only to Palestinians who "identify with
Israel and its goals" and have acted to defend Israeli security.
The bill, which must be re-approved annually, will be passed by the
full Knesset plenum to allow for parliamentary scrutiny.
Local and international human rights groups have decried the bill as
racist, saying it creates an impossible situation in which couples
will either have to separate or move abroad.

[David Goldman]

How idiotic. The Zionist Nazis have singled out a single group of
people for non-residency and citizenship. Of course this doesn't apply
to Russians from Kiev or Moscow but only to native Palestinians.
Sieg Heil!

Mr. Goldman, countries do have the right to decide who will or will
not be allowed citizenship, this is the right of all countries. The NK
should Piss off and go back to their shuckle and shake routine.

[Larry R]

Goldman has switched to his mother tongue.
He can't win an argument with his regular crap, so he is trying to get by us
in another language.
He writes to see himself in print, not to prove anything.
Narcism is his only forte.

Goldman my friend... long time no hear :)
Were you by any chance a German soldier in your previous life?? what's

with

all the German crap all the time???
Israel, as a democratic nation, has a right to decide who can come in and
receive full rights... Look at Japan as an example. They have very strict
immigration laws too!
Beside, we both know very well what is behind this mass Palestinians
marrying Israeli Arabs to get full citizenship... Another way of

destroying

the Jewish majority in Israel hence getting control of both Israel and
Palestine. We know this will make you very happy but unfortunately for

you,

it aint gonna happen!

Jawohl! Sieg Heil der Zionistiche Fuhrer, Herr Sharon mit den
Kommandanten so wie Mofaz und die aendere verabsheuliche Menschen!!
Izrael Uber Alles!!
Zionismus Macht Frei!!
w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Last update - 18:08 31/07/2003
MKs okay bill preventing Palestinians from getting citizenship
By Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service
The Knesset plenum approved Thursday the second and third readings of
a bill to prevent Palestinians who marry Israeli citizens from
receiving citizenship or permanent residency status.
The bill, which has been denounced by its opponents as 'racist' and
'inhumane,' passed by a majority of 53 votes to 25, with one
abstention.
The vote on the amendment to a clause in the citizenship law relating
to family unification was preceded by efforts by the opposition to
stall the ballot.
Labor, Meretz and Arab parties asked that the vote be a vote of no
confidence in the government, which would delay the ballot. But Acting
Prime Minister Silvan Shalom rejected this request, saying that the
vote would be viewed by the government as a vote of confidence, and
therefore could go ahead immediately.
MK Avraham Burg (Labor) said that according to Knesset regulations,
the prime minister must announce in person that he views the vote as a
vote of confidence in the government, and therefore such a move could
not take place without approval from the absent Ariel Sharon.
But Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin then received Sharon's approval in a
telephone conversation, making it possible for the ballot to go ahead.
Ahead of the vote, Army Radio reported that at least three Shinui
Knesset members who opposed the bill were likely to keep to coalition
expectations and abstain from the vote, rather than voting against the
bill.
On Wednesday night, Arab MK Ahmed Tibi (Hadash) attacked Interior
Minister Avraham Poraz (Shinui) for supporting the bill, Army Radio
reported.
"How can you call yourself a liberal?" Tibi asked.
Poraz has said he wasn't "thrilled" with the bill and wished it
weren't necessary, but would abide by it if it became law.
The Knesset Interior and Environment Committee voted Wednesday night
for the second time that day to approve the bill. Knesset Speaker
Rivlin decided Wednesday evening to agree to Meretz MK Roman
Bronfman's request to conduct a re-vote in the committee, which
earlier approved the bill 8-0 in the absence of bill opponents.
The MKs who opposed the bill boycotted the vote to protest what they
said was insufficient time to explain the reasons for their
reservations.
Bill supporters noted that Palestinians who received Israeli
citizenship by marriage were playing a growing role in terror attacks,
a phenomenon that the director the Shin Bet security service Avi
Dichter described in a closed session Tuesday.
Most of those who will be affected by the amendment are Israeli Arabs
who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza, who will now be
unable to live together in Israel.
The committee had been scheduled to vote on the matter on Tuesday, but
the vote on an amended version of the bill was postponed following a
stormy debate.
The committee's legal adviser had recommended amending the bill,
saying the original version constituted an excessive infringement of
civil rights.
According to the new version, the interior minister may grant
citizenship or a six-month residency permit in special cases. The
previous version allowed the minister to grant citizenship or a
three-month residency permit only to Palestinians who "identify with
Israel and its goals" and have acted to defend Israeli security.
The bill, which must be re-approved annually, will be passed by the
full Knesset plenum to allow for parliamentary scrutiny.
Local and international human rights groups have decried the bill as
racist, saying it creates an impossible situation in which couples
will either have to separate or move abroad.

[Alien]

And does that principle you believe in also apply to the Third Reich
as well??

Ignorant of democracy, Ignorant of History, no telling just how
ignorant you are goldman. Shuckle and shake, you do that best.

[David Goldman]

In the agregate it doesn't really matter, does it Alonka?? The
Zionazis don't even have the money to fund their immigration police to
expell Thais, Filipinos and Ghanaians. So where will they get the
money to expell some 100,000 "illegal" Palestinians?? Besides, it IS
the Palestinians' country, you know. Some chutzpa. You whining Zionist
narcissists invade the country, kick out a large number of the native
inhabitants, and then proceed to deny them the right to live there.
But a few dollars will go a long way in bribery to look the other way,
as it always does with the Zionist bureaucracy as the State collapses
and people, even Jews, need to put food on the table.
And talk about PR. It's a no-win game for the Zionists. Bye, bye,
Zionist Reich!

Goldman my friend... long time no hear :)
Were you by any chance a German soldier in your previous life?? what's with
all the German crap all the time???
Israel, as a democratic nation, has a right to decide who can come in and
receive full rights... Look at Japan as an example. They have very strict
immigration laws too!
Beside, we both know very well what is behind this mass Palestinians
marrying Israeli Arabs to get full citizenship... Another way of destroying
the Jewish majority in Israel hence getting control of both Israel and
Palestine. We know this will make you very happy but unfortunately for you,
it aint gonna happen!

Jawohl! Sieg Heil der Zionistiche Fuhrer, Herr Sharon mit den
Kommandanten so wie Mofaz und die aendere verabsheuliche Menschen!!
Izrael Uber Alles!!
Zionismus Macht Frei!!
w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Last update - 18:08 31/07/2003
MKs okay bill preventing Palestinians from getting citizenship
By Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service
The Knesset plenum approved Thursday the second and third readings of
a bill to prevent Palestinians who marry Israeli citizens from
receiving citizenship or permanent residency status.
The bill, which has been denounced by its opponents as 'racist' and
'inhumane,' passed by a majority of 53 votes to 25, with one
abstention.
The vote on the amendment to a clause in the citizenship law relating
to family unification was preceded by efforts by the opposition to
stall the ballot.
Labor, Meretz and Arab parties asked that the vote be a vote of no
confidence in the government, which would delay the ballot. But Acting
Prime Minister Silvan Shalom rejected this request, saying that the
vote would be viewed by the government as a vote of confidence, and
therefore could go ahead immediately.
MK Avraham Burg (Labor) said that according to Knesset regulations,
the prime minister must announce in person that he views the vote as a
vote of confidence in the government, and therefore such a move could
not take place without approval from the absent Ariel Sharon.
But Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin then received Sharon's approval in a
telephone conversation, making it possible for the ballot to go ahead.
Ahead of the vote, Army Radio reported that at least three Shinui
Knesset members who opposed the bill were likely to keep to coalition
expectations and abstain from the vote, rather than voting against the
bill.
On Wednesday night, Arab MK Ahmed Tibi (Hadash) attacked Interior
Minister Avraham Poraz (Shinui) for supporting the bill, Army Radio
reported.
"How can you call yourself a liberal?" Tibi asked.
Poraz has said he wasn't "thrilled" with the bill and wished it
weren't necessary, but would abide by it if it became law.
The Knesset Interior and Environment Committee voted Wednesday night
for the second time that day to approve the bill. Knesset Speaker
Rivlin decided Wednesday evening to agree to Meretz MK Roman
Bronfman's request to conduct a re-vote in the committee, which
earlier approved the bill 8-0 in the absence of bill opponents.
The MKs who opposed the bill boycotted the vote to protest what they
said was insufficient time to explain the reasons for their
reservations.
Bill supporters noted that Palestinians who received Israeli
citizenship by marriage were playing a growing role in terror attacks,
a phenomenon that the director the Shin Bet security service Avi
Dichter described in a closed session Tuesday.
Most of those who will be affected by the amendment are Israeli Arabs
who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza, who will now be
unable to live together in Israel.
The committee had been scheduled to vote on the matter on Tuesday, but
the vote on an amended version of the bill was postponed following a
stormy debate.
The committee's legal adviser had recommended amending the bill,
saying the original version constituted an excessive infringement of
civil rights.
According to the new version, the interior minister may grant
citizenship or a six-month residency permit in special cases. The
previous version allowed the minister to grant citizenship or a
three-month residency permit only to Palestinians who "identify with
Israel and its goals" and have acted to defend Israeli security.
The bill, which must be re-approved annually, will be passed by the
full Knesset plenum to allow for parliamentary scrutiny.
Local and international human rights groups have decried the bill as
racist, saying it creates an impossible situation in which couples
will either have to separate or move abroad.

[Theodore Herzl]

Goldman my friend... long time no hear :)
Were you by any chance a German soldier in your previous life?? what's with
all the German crap all the time???
Israel, as a democratic nation, has a right to decide who can come in and
receive full rights... Look at Japan as an example. They have very strict
immigration laws too!

Glad to hear we will have your full support for new laws banning Jews
from becoming citizens in other countries following the precedent set
by Israel. Please do not be surprised to see some serious backlash
from other countries due to Israel's Racist policies. In fact, I
would think this law would also be justification for mass expulsion of
Jews from other countries, to regain their non-Jewish identity of
course. You people are just plain disgusting examples of human trash.

Beside, we both know very well what is behind this mass Palestinians
marrying Israeli Arabs to get full citizenship... Another way of destroying
the Jewish majority in Israel hence getting control of both Israel and
Palestine. We know this will make you very happy but unfortunately for you,
it aint gonna happen!

Obviously you have no faith in yourself or your people to live in
harmany and in peace with others.

Jawohl! Sieg Heil der Zionistiche Fuhrer, Herr Sharon mit den
Kommandanten so wie Mofaz und die aendere verabsheuliche Menschen!!
Izrael Uber Alles!!
Zionismus Macht Frei!!
w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Last update - 18:08 31/07/2003
MKs okay bill preventing Palestinians from getting citizenship
By Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service
The Knesset plenum approved Thursday the second and third readings of
a bill to prevent Palestinians who marry Israeli citizens from
receiving citizenship or permanent residency status.
The bill, which has been denounced by its opponents as 'racist' and
'inhumane,' passed by a majority of 53 votes to 25, with one
abstention.
The vote on the amendment to a clause in the citizenship law relating
to family unification was preceded by efforts by the opposition to
stall the ballot.
Labor, Meretz and Arab parties asked that the vote be a vote of no
confidence in the government, which would delay the ballot. But Acting
Prime Minister Silvan Shalom rejected this request, saying that the
vote would be viewed by the government as a vote of confidence, and
therefore could go ahead immediately.
MK Avraham Burg (Labor) said that according to Knesset regulations,
the prime minister must announce in person that he views the vote as a
vote of confidence in the government, and therefore such a move could
not take place without approval from the absent Ariel Sharon.
But Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin then received Sharon's approval in a
telephone conversation, making it possible for the ballot to go ahead.
Ahead of the vote, Army Radio reported that at least three Shinui
Knesset members who opposed the bill were likely to keep to coalition
expectations and abstain from the vote, rather than voting against the
bill.
On Wednesday night, Arab MK Ahmed Tibi (Hadash) attacked Interior
Minister Avraham Poraz (Shinui) for supporting the bill, Army Radio
reported.
"How can you call yourself a liberal?" Tibi asked.
Poraz has said he wasn't "thrilled" with the bill and wished it
weren't necessary, but would abide by it if it became law.
The Knesset Interior and Environment Committee voted Wednesday night
for the second time that day to approve the bill. Knesset Speaker
Rivlin decided Wednesday evening to agree to Meretz MK Roman
Bronfman's request to conduct a re-vote in the committee, which
earlier approved the bill 8-0 in the absence of bill opponents.
The MKs who opposed the bill boycotted the vote to protest what they
said was insufficient time to explain the reasons for their
reservations.
Bill supporters noted that Palestinians who received Israeli
citizenship by marriage were playing a growing role in terror attacks,
a phenomenon that the director the Shin Bet security service Avi
Dichter described in a closed session Tuesday.
Most of those who will be affected by the amendment are Israeli Arabs
who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza, who will now be
unable to live together in Israel.
The committee had been scheduled to vote on the matter on Tuesday, but
the vote on an amended version of the bill was postponed following a
stormy debate.
The committee's legal adviser had recommended amending the bill,
saying the original version constituted an excessive infringement of
civil rights.
According to the new version, the interior minister may grant
citizenship or a six-month residency permit in special cases. The
previous version allowed the minister to grant citizenship or a
three-month residency permit only to Palestinians who "identify with
Israel and its goals" and have acted to defend Israeli security.
The bill, which must be re-approved annually, will be passed by the
full Knesset plenum to allow for parliamentary scrutiny.
Local and international human rights groups have decried the bill as
racist, saying it creates an impossible situation in which couples
will either have to separate or move abroad.

[BTov]

Post by Theodore Herzl

Goldman my friend... long time no hear :)
Were you by any chance a German soldier in your previous life?? what's with
all the German crap all the time???
Israel, as a democratic nation, has a right to decide who can come in and
receive full rights... Look at Japan as an example. They have very strict
immigration laws too!

Glad to hear we will have your full support for new laws banning Jews
from becoming citizens in other countries following the precedent set
by Israel. Please do not be surprised to see some serious backlash
from other countries due to Israel's Racist policies. In fact, I
would think this law would also be justification for mass expulsion of
Jews from other countries, to regain their non-Jewish identity of
course. You people are just plain disgusting examples of human trash.

from becoming citizens of what country?
burkina faso? saudi arabia?
go to school

[Michael W Cook]

Post by Theodore Herzl

Goldman my friend... long time no hear :)
Were you by any chance a German soldier in your previous life?? what's with
all the German crap all the time???
Israel, as a democratic nation, has a right to decide who can come in and
receive full rights... Look at Japan as an example. They have very strict
immigration laws too!

Glad to hear we will have your full support for new laws banning Jews
from becoming citizens in other countries following the precedent set
by Israel. Please do not be surprised to see some serious backlash
from other countries due to Israel's Racist policies. In fact, I
would think this law would also be justification for mass expulsion of
Jews from other countries, to regain their non-Jewish identity of
course. You people are just plain disgusting examples of human trash.

Bad breeding and a small gene pool, it's understandable really.

They want to keep the blood 'in-house', so they can create more monsters
like Sharon and breed more lunatics who believe they are God's chosen
arseholes.

Laughable.

MWC

[Alon Katzir]

Post by Michael W Cook

Post by Theodore Herzl

Goldman my friend... long time no hear :)
Were you by any chance a German soldier in your previous life?? what's with
all the German crap all the time???
Israel, as a democratic nation, has a right to decide who can come in and
receive full rights... Look at Japan as an example. They have very strict
immigration laws too!

Glad to hear we will have your full support for new laws banning Jews
from becoming citizens in other countries following the precedent set
by Israel. Please do not be surprised to see some serious backlash
from other countries due to Israel's Racist policies. In fact, I
would think this law would also be justification for mass expulsion of
Jews from other countries, to regain their non-Jewish identity of
course. You people are just plain disgusting examples of human trash.

Bad breeding and a small gene pool, it's understandable really.
They want to keep the blood 'in-house', so they can create more monsters
like Sharon and breed more lunatics who believe they are God's chosen
arseholes.
Laughable.
MWC

You are such an idiot... ever thought that the Israelis just want a place of
their own to leave in peace like most other nations and not worry about
racist thugs like you??

[Alon Katzir]

Post by Theodore Herzl

Goldman my friend... long time no hear :)
Were you by any chance a German soldier in your previous life?? what's with
all the German crap all the time???
Israel, as a democratic nation, has a right to decide who can come in and
receive full rights... Look at Japan as an example. They have very strict
immigration laws too!

Glad to hear we will have your full support for new laws banning Jews
from becoming citizens in other countries following the precedent set
by Israel. Please do not be surprised to see some serious backlash
from other countries due to Israel's Racist policies. In fact, I
would think this law would also be justification for mass expulsion of
Jews from other countries, to regain their non-Jewish identity of
course. You people are just plain disgusting examples of human trash.

History had showed that Jews were always banned from immigrating and holding
high ranking positions in other countries... nothing new there.

We need a place of our own to call home so we can defend ourselfs from low
lifes nazis like you!

Post by Theodore Herzl

Beside, we both know very well what is behind this mass Palestinians
marrying Israeli Arabs to get full citizenship... Another way of destroying
the Jewish majority in Israel hence getting control of both Israel and
Palestine. We know this will make you very happy but unfortunately for you,
it aint gonna happen!

Obviously you have no faith in yourself or your people to live in
harmany and in peace with others.

I have faith in ourselves... unfortunately I don't have faith in the
Palestinians who to this day have martyr camps and breed the next line of
suicide bombers...

[Theodore Herzl]

Post by David Goldman

Post by Theodore Herzl

Goldman my friend... long time no hear :)
Were you by any chance a German soldier in your previous life?? what's

with

Post by Theodore Herzl

all the German crap all the time???
Israel, as a democratic nation, has a right to decide who can come in

and

Post by Theodore Herzl

receive full rights... Look at Japan as an example. They have very

strict

Post by Theodore Herzl

immigration laws too!

Glad to hear we will have your full support for new laws banning Jews
from becoming citizens in other countries following the precedent set
by Israel. Please do not be surprised to see some serious backlash
from other countries due to Israel's Racist policies. In fact, I
would think this law would also be justification for mass expulsion of
Jews from other countries, to regain their non-Jewish identity of
course. You people are just plain disgusting examples of human trash.

History had showed that Jews were always banned from immigrating and holding
high ranking positions in other countries... nothing new there.3

Maybe at one time in history, that may be true, but it is not true
today in other countries. The rest of the free worlds democracies
long ago realized racism, like that of Israel's, is wrong and outlaw
such draconian behavior.

Post by David Goldman
We need a place of our own to call home so we can defend ourselfs from low
lifes nazis like you!

Israel, by passing racist apartheid laws like this one, has provem
that today's Nazi's are the people of Israel, who keep electing the
fascist Likud party to represent them and their sick apartheid
principals.

Take a good look in the mirror ZioNazi.

Post by David Goldman

Post by Theodore Herzl

Beside, we both know very well what is behind this mass Palestinians
marrying Israeli Arabs to get full citizenship... Another way of

destroying

Post by Theodore Herzl

the Jewish majority in Israel hence getting control of both Israel and
Palestine. We know this will make you very happy but unfortunately for

you,

Post by Theodore Herzl

it aint gonna happen!

Obviously you have no faith in yourself or your people to live in
harmany and in peace with others.

I have faith in ourselves... unfortunately I don't have faith in the
Palestinians who to this day have martyr camps and breed the next line of
suicide bombers...

[BTov]

Jawohl! Sieg Heil der Zionistiche Fuhrer, Herr Sharon mit den
Kommandanten so wie Mofaz und die aendere verabsheuliche Menschen!!
Izrael Uber Alles!!
Zionismus Macht Frei!!

seems like goldman suffers a recurring fit of violent lunacy again..
the keyboard's the only means of containing him i guess his mental
institution figured it out..
no surprise here he's crazy and his palestinians are crazy too..

[Greg Felton]

Jawohl! Sieg Heil der Zionistiche Fuhrer, Herr Sharon mit den
Kommandanten so wie Mofaz und die aendere verabsheuliche Menschen!!
Izrael Uber Alles!!
Zionismus Macht Frei!!

<pointless, derogarotry insult to David Goldman snipped for taste>

[Genome Ranger]

It amazes me how uncompassionate some Israeli people can be
considering all the suffering jewish people have had to endure. You
sit here and complain about suicide bombers when your F16s and Apache
helicopters and bulldozers level civilian homes. Gee I guess that
makes it less brutal. Dont you think if the Palestinians had F16s and
Apaches they'd use that instead of suicide bombers? Does that make it
okay in your book now? Do you think that some of poor jewish souls in
concentration camps during WW2 wouldnt have take up suicide bombing
against their german captors if they had the means instead of live in
filth, torture and starvation? Shame on you people who speak of and
treat Palestinians the same way the Germans treated the Jews.

Post by BTov

Jawohl! Sieg Heil der Zionistiche Fuhrer, Herr Sharon mit den
Kommandanten so wie Mofaz und die aendere verabsheuliche Menschen!!
Izrael Uber Alles!!
Zionismus Macht Frei!!

seems like goldman suffers a recurring fit of violent lunacy again..
the keyboard's the only means of containing him i guess his mental
institution figured it out..
no surprise here he's crazy and his palestinians are crazy too..

[BTov]

Was ist los?
Israel demokratische?! Was für Gerumpel sprichst du?
Wie kann ein Zustand, dem Apartheid, Folterung übt, und keine
Beschaffenheit, demokratisch zu benennen?
Es gibt keinen Unterschied zwischen die Dritte Reich und Die
Zionistische Reich. Sharon ist der neue Führer. Kannst du es nicht
verstehen?

and where's your heil?
the portrait of greg moron won't be complete without it